Awareness or Perception?

[cosmocat]

I'm running into the same wall often in meditation and contemplation. I can't seem to differentiate between awareness and perception in my experience. In meditation when I notice a perception, say an itch on my foot, I experience the sensation in my foot while being "aware" that I am experiencing it. But as soon as I try to put my awareness on awareness, it turns into a stream of thought. The word "awareness" pops up as soon as I try to do that and now I'm aware of the thought instead. There's always a background of internal sensations as well. I can't seem to get to what Peter Ralston calls "awareness of awareness". My object of awareness is always a thought or a perception. Even when I'm without thought for a moment, I'm perceiving my presence due to internal sensations in my body. How can I be aware of awareness when it keeps perceiving sensations?  My awareness always is pointed AT something. Any tips?

[Gili Trawangan]

Let go of attention altogether. If awareness is pointed at something, it means you're not there. Let attention go over and over again until there is no object.

It will feel like you don't know what's happening or who you are, there will be no thought and no awareness of anything. It might take a while to get there, depending on how much meditation you've done before. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Gili Trawangan

[Nahm]

If one were to personalize trolling for Nahm, it’s this. 

[WonderSeeker]

"Just keep swimming." -Dory

[Carl-Richard]

Perceptions change. What is it that never changes?

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, Nahm said:

If one were to personalize trolling for Nahm, it’s this. 

[cosmocat]

@Gili Trawangan Thank you, that's helpful. I'll keep going.

@WonderSeeker will do!

@Nahm no idea what you mean so I'll let it be.

@Carl-Richard I think deep down I'm not convinced why Truth should be a single static thing. Again, I'm trying not to make any assumptions about what I don't know. I don't know the truth. Why couldn't it be dynamic? Never heard someone make the case for why it should be one static thing.

[cosmocat]

@Carl-Richard ok problem averted. Got it.

[Carl-Richard]

48 minutes ago, cosmocat said:

I think deep down I'm not convinced why Truth should be a single static thing. Again, I'm trying not to make any assumptions about what I don't know. I don't know the truth. Why couldn't it be dynamic? Never heard someone make the case for why it should be one static thing.

Does the truth ever stop being truth?

[WelcometoReality]

@cosmocat What if you drop "trying to put my awareness on awareness" and let the realization come by itself?

[cosmocat]

@Carl-Richard I want to say no but I really don't know. How would I be able to say that unless I knew what the truth was? I can understand it in the context of self-inquiry, though. If I'm trying to understand the nature of awareness, I would be looking for what is always there no matter what perceptions or thoughts arise.

 

@WelcometoReality I could, but I want to see where trying takes me. I have dabbled in and out of "what is reality, really?" to varying degrees and have always considered it to have high priority. I have only become quite serious about it recently. I don't know, I want the truth now. Everything else seems far less important when you realise you have no clue who/what you are. Maybe I'll release control once I've done a healthy amount of trying. I am not done trying quite yet! 

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, cosmocat said:

WelcometoReality I could, but I want to see where trying takes me. I have dabbled in and out of "what is reality, really?" to varying degrees and have always considered it to have high priority. I have only become quite serious about it recently. I don't know, I want the truth now. Everything else seems far less important when you realise you have no clue who/what you are. Maybe I'll release control once I've done a healthy amount of trying. I am not done trying quite yet! 

It's nice to see some badass dedication. 

What I'm "trying to" convey is that it's more of a relaxing/leaning back/effortless feeling to it than than a striding/pushing/stuggling one. 

[This]

I've noticed that all my efforts and mental gymnastics to find awareness or to see its' nature actually are illusory and are not really doing anything.

All of the struggle is constantly always seen from the only "place" it can be seen from. What a relief.

I could go stand on a tall building and yell at awareness "what's your true nature?!" i would get no answer and the cops might come. 

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

What I'm "trying to" convey is that it's more of a relaxing/leaning back/effortless feeling to it than than a striding/pushing/stuggling one. 

 

[cosmocat]

@WelcometoReality Ah, I see what you mean. Thanks!

@This I suppose it comes with the package of trying to do this thing at all

@Carl-Richard Quite helpful, thanks!

@Kalo Will do. I tried it for a period of time and got distracted by other things instead and stopped doing it. Funny how when you're trying to find yourself, the self basically does anything it can to divert your attention. I'm tired of getting distracted though and the straight-up methods resonate with me at this stage. Neti neti is certainly one of those. 

[Nahm]

17 hours ago, cosmocat said:

I'm running into the same wall often in meditation and contemplation.

You’re not an object in time. That’s only in accordance to a story you keep thinking, believing & telling, that you are. But you aren’t. You’re what now is. 

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I can't seem to differentiate between awareness and perception in my experience.

That’s because there’s no actuality of a “my experience”. There’s no “you”, contrary to apparent popular belief. 

Aware of perception, never perceiving awareness, aware of the thoughts “I” & “my”, and the thought label “experience”. 

Awareness is what already is directly aware of perception (seeing, hearing, etc). There’s no “you” in there anywhere. “You” is a thought, awareness is directly aware of. 

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In meditation when I notice a perception, say an itch on my foot, I experience the sensation in my foot while being "aware" that I am experiencing it.

Proof read for contradictions and reap low hanging fruits of clarity. ? ‘The itch’ is a sensation. “Itch” is a thought. The sensation is sensation. No need to label it anything otherwise. Except for communication, like “Dr I’m pretty sure this leg is broken”.  Notice you don’t see or hear an itch, it is sensation. “The mind” hijacks it with a label. “Body” is the same scenario. Body is a word, a thought, a label, and never in perception or sensation. Good word for communicating, not a good thought for awareness to attach to. 

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But as soon as I try to put my awareness on awareness, it turns into a stream of thought.

There’s no “you” which has awareness. You can google and read on the materialist paradigm. There are not consciousnesses, or, awarenesses. The words even sound ridiculous. There is not “my” consciousness, and “your” consciousness. “My” & “your” are thoughts, awareness is directly aware of. Google “monkey mind”, and notice you ain’t a monkey. Even if you think and act like one, awareness is aware of awareness. (Monkey’s a thought, like mind). 

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The word "awareness" pops up as soon as I try to do that and now I'm aware of the thought instead.

Par for the course. Just return focus again on consciously breathing from the stomach. It’s good to notice in direct experience that one can not focus simultaneously on thought, and breathing consciously from the stomach. That can be an all day ‘practice’, and it’s very efficient. 

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There's always a background of internal sensations as well.

Awareness is directly aware of sensation. “Background”, like “internal” is a thought. 

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I can't seem to get to what Peter Ralston calls "awareness of awareness".

Focusing on consciously breathing from the stomach, the mind settles, the activity of ‘thinking’ quiets, and awareness is ‘revealed’, awareness already is / was, but is sort of discovered for the first time, so to speak. Then...revisit awareness (actual you) of awareness (actual reality). 

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My object of awareness is always a thought or a perception.

“Object” is only a thought. There is no such “thing” in perception or sensation. FEEL sensation, notice it has no edges. Examine peripheral vision, notice “edge” or “border” is only a thought. There’s no “edge” of perception. “Stuff behind you” is a thought, an assumption, not direct experience in regard to perception. Appreciate the infinite “level” of smoke & mirrors at play. Lighthearted, fun, natural curiosity. Not “achieving”, “obtaining”,  “awakening”, etc. Just seein what’s actual. 

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Even when I'm without thought for a moment, I'm perceiving my presence due to internal sensations in my body.

“I’m” can not be without thought, “I’m” is a thought. Notice there’s no actual direct experience of “perceiving” “my presence”. Presence ain’t yours because there’s no you. Just presence. 

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How can I be aware of awareness when it keeps perceiving sensations? 

By inspecting, expressing, investigating, exactly like you are. An “I” can never, and will never be aware, because awareness is already aware of the thought. 

Catch usage of the word / thought “it”. “It” is the great veil of subject object thinking. Say what a “thing” actually is, and “it” unveils to “you” reality as “it” actually is. (Without a subject or object)

Awareness has never perceived sensations. Awareness is directly aware of perception, there’s no actuality of an experience “perceiving”, nor “perceiving sensations”. Awareness is directly aware of sensation, which is not plural, either. 

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My awareness always is pointed AT something. Any tips?

Don’t believe that thought.  Which is easy if awareness stops claiming itself! 

There’s no “thing”, no “something” in perception. 

Perception just is perception. 

Thought (like thing, or something) just is thought. 

 

[cosmocat]

@Kalo Those are not within my reach at the moment. 

@Nahm That was a great dissection of my question. Thanks a lot for your time. It was helpful to realise the linguistic gymnastics I was doing. It's really hard to talk about without making such distinctions in the first place. I think I'm starting to really grasp how conceptually dominated experience is. The furthest I've gone is realising "I" as a thought, couldn't really locate the "I". And as soon as I ask the question, "so if that I was a thought, then who/what actually is aware of the "I"?" only to run in circles because the question itself was a thought generated by "I".
I've watched Leo's videos + other teachings wherever I could find for the past few years. I am really into intellectualising things (I always believed Truth could be reached through thought and rationalisation, so much so that I became a physicist - and listening and contemplating what Leo talks about helped me realise that was not the way to what I was seeking) so for a while my ego got a kick out of being able to understand and repeat the theory only to realise I was taking things on as a belief (despite all the warnings, haha). It was all just a more sophisticated concept of what I thought Truth was but with a nagging feeling of "this isn't it. no". So I've decided to not look for theoretical answers anymore. I'm at a stage where any description of what IS is only getting in the way and I feel like throwing all the spiritual books and this laptop away for good. So I appreciate pointers of what to do next and pointers of where I'm stuck. The process has been getting lonelier and I have basically even stopped talking about it to other people because that was also a way for my ego to add more layers to itself.
I'm tired of being told I am God or I am this or that. It's not true in my experience right now and is merely heresy until I get there myself (if it's the Truth at all, I don't know). It does give me hope to remind myself that this is a process. I'll keep at it

[WelcometoReality]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

 

[vladorion]

For me, trying to be aware of awareness causes tension.

It's better to notice "where am I looking from?" or "what is looking?". And then rather than trying to see that place as an object, relax, fall back into it.

And at the same time, if you're notice you're trying hard to get there, notice that you're already there where you're looking from. How else could it be?

[Nahm]

26 minutes ago, cosmocat said:

@Kalo Those are not within my reach at the moment. 

@Nahm That was a great dissection of my question. Thanks a lot for your time. It was helpful to realise the linguistic gymnastics I was doing. It's really hard to talk about without making such distinctions in the first place. I think I'm starting to really grasp how conceptually dominated experience is. The furthest I've gone is realising "I" as a thought, couldn't really locate the "I". And as soon as I ask the question, "so if that I was a thought, then who/what actually is aware of the "I"?" only to run in circles because the question itself was a thought generated by "I".

I hear ya. It takes momentum, practice. Not trying to ‘beat up on’ your post or anything btw, just trying to give my best & help. I think you get that. This version of self inquiry might be helpful. IN a nutshell, it’s proposing the question and then looking to feeling for the answer. In a way it is a more advanced practice, so maybe check out others on the list too and see if any click.  

26 minutes ago, cosmocat said:

I've watched Leo's videos + other teachings wherever I could find for the past few years. I am really into intellectualising things (I always believed Truth could be reached through thought and rationalisation, so much so that I became a physicist - and listening and contemplating what Leo talks about helped me realise that was not the way to what I was seeking) so for a while my ego got a kick out of being able to understand and repeat the theory only to realise I was taking things on as a belief (despite all the warnings, haha). It was all just a more sophisticated concept of what I thought Truth was but with a nagging feeling of "this isn't it. no". So I've decided to not look for theoretical answers anymore. I'm at a stage where any description of what IS is only getting in the way and I feel like throwing all the spiritual books and this laptop away for good. So I appreciate pointers of what to do next and pointers of where I'm stuck.

Interesting & thanks for sharing that. I sensed a rather tremendous intelligence behind your post. That’s why it seemed to me you might be trolling. Sorry bout that. 

26 minutes ago, cosmocat said:

 

The process has been getting lonelier and I have basically even stopped talking about it to other people because that was also a way for my ego to add more layers to itself.
I'm tired of being told I am God or I am this or that. It's not true in my experience right now and is merely heresy until I get there myself (if it's the Truth at all, I don't know). It does give me hope to remind myself that this is a process. I'll keep at it

For sure. Two cents... swiftly let go of anything that doesn’t resonate, doesn’t feel great, and hone in / dial in to what resonates with you. That which ‘we’ resonate with, the vibration ‘itself’ is “it”, so to speak. I heard you on the not listening to too many videos but can’t but suggest Abraham Hicks. A bit different than most, and it’s all feeling and connection through feeling oriented. Good stuff. Godspeed on your path!