privilege

[Fredodoow]

My take on privilege. I would love to have your thoughts on it. I'm ready for a civil discution, Feel free to completely disagree but please don't be too harsh in your response (I know this sort of take can trigger some) and I will answer from a place of open mindedness to the best of my ability.

 

The notion of privilege is something I find problematic. Let's take for exemple people who have back problems. A portion of the population has chronic back problems. Therefore they have a a problem. I don't have back problems, I don't have that particular problem. Now could you say I'm privileged in that regard? Let's "healthy-backed privileged?" Well if you look at it a certain way, yes you could. People with back problems are disadvantaged and people with no back problems are privileged. However, this is what bothers me : by talking about privilege, instead of pointing towards the problem that some people have, and how to go about fixing it, we are directing attention to the unfair advantage that some other people have. Therefore we don't think in terms of rising one groupe up, ut in terms of bringing the other group down. The notion of privilege always brings the notion of blame. The discussion goes like this :

certain activists - "White people, you are to blame." Me : "But I didn't do anything" activists : "no but you benefit from it. You are privileged". Me "Maybe, but not to blame, since I didn't do anything". And so on and so on. Until thee activist says "ok, you are not directly to blame, but you benefit from that privilege, therefore it is your responsibility to do such and such for the underprivileged group." 

My position is this : I'm happy to make the world a better place, to help people, but not to be blamed. Never, ever. No white guilt. Guilt isn't, to my opinion, a good motivator to do anything. Instead, it's often what prevents people from taking action, because then they feel attacked, defensive. "Go help black people, go raise money for them, go make the miserable less miserable" Sure, I would love to. "Take a good look at yourself, acknowledge your privilege, bring yourself down, tell us how arrogant, self bias you are." Nope, not even in your dreams. 

Oh, and every time I hear "white people are privileged." I can't help but think : is that how the holocaust started? A bunch of germans saying "look at jews, how privileged they are?" Once again I am not saying that the holocaust is coming for white men, don't stop at the dramatic comparaison, but just try to see the similarity in thinking. A nazi saying "Jews control the media, the finances and lots of other areas. They need to be put down a noch." And there were no question of holocaust at first. I can imagine, during the rise of nazis, someone saying "guys, your rhetoric is dangerous, don't you think?" And the nazis responding "of course not, it's not like we're talking about killing jews! No one wants that! No we're just talking about their privileges, and what could be done about it". And to some extent I'm sure the germans were right, I'm sure the jew community had some privileges some advantages, they didn't just make all of that up. But the outcome was a massacre.

And one more thing. I have a ego. I'm a simple guy with an ego, and I like it stroked a bit. I have a tendency to prefer people who compliment me than people who criticize me harshly. Of course the truth is always best, but between a false compliment and a false attack, I prefer a false compliment. Wich means I most likely to help someone who asks kindly, than to help someone who shames me. (As for basically anyone). 

I don't think that's a shortcoming from my part, but then if I hear "hey, you, white people, the ones who suck, the evil of this world! The least you could do is help those guys over there!" Well "Fuck you, I didn't do anything". "Sure but you benefit from the privileges of years of etc etc etc"

So, little strategic advice to the activists : you want more help from whites? Maybe try and tell them there's something else than a piece of shit every ones and a while. But I know what they think, they think we're arrogant, used to have everything handed to us, use to being respected for no reason. Well to that I answer, some of us yes, some of us not so much, but that doesn't mean we don't deserve respect. AND that doesn't mean that your all activism projet wouldn't work better. Try making us feel good about ourselves, manipulate us a little bit, we'll be grateful for it, maybe we'll even open up our wallets and acknowledge our privileges.

[Thought Art]

Your privilege makes you blind. If you actually checked your privilege you would see what you are saying, and wouldn't say this. I am white.

White fragility! ahaha. Yeah I feel that pain too. I worked with a lot of hip hop artists and I have boiled in a lot of guilt even though I didn't do anything. White history is kind of shameful, we do benefit from it. Look at the red lining, for profit jails, years of history, environmental racism, slavery, and all the other blatantly racist shit that goes on around the world and in the west.

Boohoo they make you feel bad.

to them its ACTUALLY LIFE OR FUCKING DEATH. Get over yourself. check your privilage and toughen up. These are your brothers and sisters.

Shit has been fucked on this planet for a long time because of white people. You don't need to feel guilty, but its important to try to really see it from their perspective. Its more than just privilege, its also seeing things from a black, brown and yellow perspective. When it comes to race relations, you can't just say "Well it wasn't me". They know it wasn't you. That isn't the point. How deep is your love?

Edited January 31, 2021 by Thought Art

[Fredodoow]

@Thought Art How deep is their love? 

[Thought Art]

@Fredodoow Pretty fucking deep man. Read some books on black lives and come back. Don't be selfish.

[Fredodoow]

@Thought Art That's exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about. "You're ignorant" is all you know how to say. But you don't listen.

[Thought Art]

The pain, trauma, hurt, etc etc etc these people have gone through whites can't imagine. And though they make you uncomfortable there is so much to learn about love from these people.

Not many people in general are very loving. But, to my if we are going to be sages we can try to understand them.

[Thought Art]

@Fredodoow Okay. I hear you, what do you want me to hear? I know this subject is hard for everyone involved. It's a real hard world.

ignorance isn't an attack either, its a truth. We are still a young species. Ignorances is the perfect place to start for us as white people when it comes to understanding the lives of our black brothers and sisters.

I will hone back a bit, I got a little emotional. A lot of my friends deal with racism, and it is painful for me. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

They are loving, but they owe us nothing in my opinion. 

They don't feel good, for them it is life or death. Feel into that pain and discomfort. Look at what you fathers have done.

I am willing to listen. Thank you for pointing out that I can listen better.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Thought Art

[Fredodoow]

@Thought Art Thank you. I don't know many black people closely enough to have had some of your experiences first hand and I can imagine, It must be really tough. But if it was as simple as blacks have it 10 times worst, then there wouldn't be white suicides and blacks happy... There are so many factors in a human life. And sometimes I feel, when it comes to these matters, that as a white you simply can't say anything other that "I'm sorry you're going trough this." I would like to have your take on my extreme comparaison with the holocaust for exemple. (Once again I know this is highly hyperbolic). 

Thank for listening, really.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Fredodoow

[Thought Art]

@Fredodoow And here when we say "well my life was hard too" is true, and part of the complexity we are dealing with.

To me this is a stage yellow realization that things in life are not black and white, yes and no. I haven't had an easy life with an alocoholic uneducated and abusive father and family. It's about dealing with nuances and making distinctions and developing a more inclusive nuanced perspective.

There is a lot of pain, in a lot of ways. They aren't saying that your life has been perfect and theirs isn't. They are saying , there are things actually taken place where there shit is happening to them because of their black skin. I welcome you on this journey.

Don't let the pain make you look away. Keep asking and asking and asking. I had some big insights over the summer where I threw up and cried a bit. It is worth it.

I saw God as a black man on a trip and recontextualized my whole reality. It was amazing.

Now I know God is not a black man, but it was a worthwhile trip

Edited January 30, 2021 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Fredodoow said:

However, this is what bothers me : by talking about privilege, instead of pointing towards the problem that some people have, and how to go about fixing it, we are directing attention to the unfair advantage that some other people have. Therefore we don't think in terms of rising one groupe up, ut in terms of bringing the other group down. The notion of privilege always brings the notion of blame.

Your framing of the situation is backwards.

The back pain example is dis-analogous because when we are talking about social inequality, this inequality is not merely genetic, it is actively caused by groups of people. One group is privileged not because they are genetically superior but because they enslaved the other group. And the only way to correct this imbalance is to take away the privilege of the dominant group.

It's like this:

I enslave your family. You rebel and call me privileged (which I am). I deny it and adopt your logic to defend myself: "Let's not blame anyone for this. Let's not bring any groups down. Let's just talk about how you can improve yourself within my slavery system. Non-zero sum game!"

The mistake in your logic is that you assume the privilege is merely accidental. But in fact it is deliberately designed. And when justice and truth dismantles this design, those who were privileged will feel outraged and violated precisely because privilege means you feel entitled to it.

When you take away a slaverowner's slaves, he is outraged that you stole this property from him. He is too biased to see that this is actually a fair and proper re-balancing of what was an imbalanced situation. This is what you're doing while fooling yourself with innocent examples of back pain. Back pain isn't caused by people trying to fuck you over.

No one is saying the white man has life easy. Life is hard for everyone, even billionaires and slaverowners. What's being said is that the system was rigged by white men to favor white men -- and this is historically undeniable in America. And fixing it requires taking something away from the white man by undoing his rigs. This is in fact a zero-sum game. White man must lose something for the system to become fair.

If you play a video game with cheats from the very beginning, when we take away your cheats you will feel robbed and injured and outraged. You will exclaim: "Oh! What great injustice and evil!"

The solution here is so simple: Just surrender your cheats and play the game without them. But instead you cling to your cheats, doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify why you deserve the cheats.

Activists are not trying to shame you for being white. They simply want you to surrender your cheats, but you insist on not surrendering them. Hence the conflict. If you refuse to surrender your cheats, they will be taken from you by force. Because truth and love always prevails over falsehood and selfishness in the long-term. And cheats are false.

[Fredodoow]

@Leo Gura I know my response seems obvious, but in this scenario, I HAVE to make the nuance : you didn't enslave my family, your grand grand grand father who you've never met enslaved my grand grand grand fathers family... The notion of priviledge still holds, but the notion of blame flies out the window with this nuance...

[Thought Art]

 

[Abdelghafar]

I totally agree with @Leo Gura and @Thought Art. You're missing a lot of the big picture.

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

 

I'd watch the video above intently.

Good luck, bruh.

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Fredodoow said:

@Leo Gura I know my response seems obvious, but in this scenario, I HAVE to make the nuance : you didn't enslave my family, your grand grand grand father who you've never met enslaved my grand grand grand fathers family... The notion of priviledge still holds, but the notion of blame flies out the window with this nuance...

Blame is irrelevant. You perceive it as blame, but all we want is for you to acknowledge and surrender the cheats. When you refuse to do so, when you defend the cheats, then you are blamed for supporting the unfair system.

No serious person blames you for slavery. You are blamed for not acknowledging systemic racism and being complicit in defending an unjust system.

Slavery was just an extreme example I used. There are many more subtle ways in which the system is rigged for whites and against colored folk.

Understand that we're not really interested in blaming you. We just want a fair system. The blame is merely a tool to shame you into realizing that you are defending an unfair system. If the system is made fair, no one will blame you any more.

Do you want to work with us to help make the system fair?

No?

Then expect to be blamed. Because you are part of the problem.

[Thought Art]

" and a man who knows a thing knows he knows not a damn damn thing at all"

Not knowing is where we all start. Congratulations brother.

[Thought Art]

"I woke up with the power out

not really something to shout about

ice is covered on my parents hands, don't have any dreams don't have any plans

I went out into the night, I went out to find some light

kids were swinging from the power lines nobody's home so nobody minds

I woke up on the darkest night

neighbours all shouting they they found the light! (We found the light)

Shadows jumping all over the wall

some of the big some of them small

I went out into the night

I went out to pick a fight with anyone!

Light a candle for the kids jesus christ don't keep it hid!"

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Fredodoow said:

That's exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about. "You're ignorant" is all you know how to say. But you don't listen.

A couple years ago I traveled to South America to learn Spanish. My best Spanish teachers didn't tell me bullshit about how great my Spanish was. My Spanish sucked and if I wanted to learn Spanish, I needed to stop taking things so personally. When a Spanish teacher said "You have a deficiency with the subjunctive tense" I didn't respond "You called my ignorant! That's all you know what to say. What a terrible attitude. Be nice to me!". . . That type of insecure personalization is a major block toward learning and growth. 

If you want to grow and become fluent, getting feedback from people that have fluency is one of the best tools you have. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. 

1 hour ago, Fredodoow said:

And sometimes I feel, when it comes to these matters, that as a white you simply can't say anything other that "I'm sorry you're going trough this."

There is LOTS more that we as white people can do. First, if we don't want to be part of the solution, we can get out of the way and stop being part of the problem. Second, we can listen to poc without being defensive and learn from them. Third, we can become allies. Fourth, we can use our privilege for good causes. For example, I'm a college teacher with certain privileges. When the teachers of color talk about racism in the context of their life experience, the white students dismiss them as "another poc lecturing us about racism" - especially female teachers of color. Yet as a white male prof, I get to walk into the classroom and talk about my life experience regarding racism and it carries weight with the white students. I told this to a poc colleague of mine and she was shocked: "You can do that???!!! I have to go through hours of data and statistics so I'm not dismissed". 

 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Can he nibble it a bit?

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Can he nibble it a bit?

Yea, nibbles grow back