The External World Does Exist: Reality is more than Consciousness

[Moksha]

39 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I Probably will have to do more trips. But I'm deeply skeptical too people are talking from direct experience here.

Maybe it will help you to consider that the story of @Javfly33 is no more ultimately real than the story of your mom or of your friend. If the story of @Javfly33 is not who You really are, why feel lonely and apathetic as @Javfly33? Perhaps the story of @Javfly33, the story of your mom, and the story of your friend, are all not only told by, but also part of You.

Skepticism of the experience of others is always warranted. Never take anything as truth beyond your direct experience. I can share with you that I Consciously see the sameness in others that is in myself, but what does that mean to you, really? It is spiritual babble, until you see it for Yourself.

[abrakamowse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(religion)

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

Maybe it will help you to consider that the story of @Javfly33 is no more ultimately real than the story of your mom or of your friend. If the story of @Javfly33 is not who You really are, why feel lonely and apathetic as @Javfly33? Perhaps the story of @Javfly33, the story of your mom, and the story of your friend, are all not only told by, but also part of You.

Skepticism of the experience of others is always warranted. Never take anything as truth beyond your direct experience. I can share with you that I Consciously see the sameness in others that is in myself, but what does that mean to you, really? It is spiritual babble, until you see it for Yourself.

Fair enough 

[Breakingthewall]

if there is only one but that one is infinite, it is not "only one". Continuing with the example of moksha from the library, if it is infinite, and you have read 1 followed by a thousand zeros of books, and a bird has not read any, you both know the same: nothing. For me it has been very important to realize this, there is nothing to know, nothing to grasp, just be (repetitive I know)

[James123]

[Moksha]

45 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me it has been very important to realize this, there is nothing to know, nothing to grasp, just be (repetitive I know)

Knowledge is a figment of the mind. It is completely conceptual. From the ultimate perspective of infinite Consciousness, what does knowledge even mean? It is nothing but a trap, to keep people from directly realizing who they are.

The reason for the multitude of books in the infinite cosmic library is not to teach anything. It is to enjoy the storytelling, which is life itself. Without stories, there is no experience. There is only timeless, changeless, nothingness. The stories arise from Consciousness, they are infused with Consciousness, and they resolve back into Consciousness. They serve a purpose, and they are divine in their own right. Instead of dismissing life as a meaningless illusion, it is wise to realize, and celebrate, the reason that life exists.

[Nahm]

@Javfly33 ...What @abrakamowse  said is of course accurate, only direct experience will do. Sharing wise, I directly experience this and have been for quite a while. Admittedly funny but I didn’t know how to refer to it when it first happened, so I called it ‘whoosh’ or ‘whooshing’. If you search whoosh there are some old posts. That’s just what it felt like and the word that came to mind. It’s amazing feeling and in hindsight I’d say it’s ideal to be ok with the non-locality of yourself. Again, just sharing, and respectfully, only direct experience will do, but I’ve experienced it both ways. Me whooshing into someone else, and someone else whooshing into me. I also experience this with people as other people, from other times or past lives showing stuff to me, to show to them. I readily admit this sounds crazy and is unbelievable. I don’t even believe in time or past lives. It wasn’t something I’d even thought of and it wasn’t something I tried. The first time it just happened, and like any other experience much is “known” in the hindsight of having experienced it. I believe meditation & psychedelics were the biggest part of opening the mind, and then Reiki classes were a big part of developing (which really is just being there and it happens) siddhis etc with other people non-trip wise. There’s no more a me ‘doing it’ than there is sharing this. Might be helpful to someone. Tried to ‘push’ a bit on this thread admittedly but didn’t seem like anyone was interested in exploring. I try to be most mindful & respectful to the maker of the threads /asker of the question because it expands reality, but don’t want to be too ‘pushy’. Always a fine line. 

[abrakamowse]

@Nahm Awesome. I need more consistency in meditation. To have a direct experience. 
 

I meditate but from time to time only. Not everyday. I want to change that. I’m already changing my diet. It says eating healthy helps too. 

[GreenWoods]

The external world, including other conscious people are real or not real to the same extend that your past is real or not real.

From the perspective that your past never happened, the external world (including other people) isn't real.

From the perspective that your past did happen, other people and their experience is real as well.

 

If you believe that your past is more real than the experience of other people (in terms of direct experience), then contemplate, what is the difference between what you did 5 minutes ago and the experience of being Trump? There is no difference. Both imagination.

You don't have direct experience of a past. You have direct experience of memories of a "past". Memories = imagination.

If you want, you can imagine any random sensory experience of being Trump. This imagined sensory experience is metaphysically the same as memories of a sensory experience you had 5 minutes ago.

The imagined sensory experience of Trump is not the same as his 'actual' experience, in terms of content. But it is equal in terms of its realness or substance. Seeing a horse in direct experience is no more metaphysically real than visualizing a unicorn in direct experience. However, practically speaking, the horse has more relevance/significance/meaning for this body-mind, so it is practical to treat the horse as more real than the unicorn.  But it's not more real, just more relevant.

Also, from the same perspective, what happened 5 seconds ago has the same degree of realness as what happened 5 years ago. And that which happened 5 years ago has the same realness as what happened in your last incarnation (which you would see if the amnesia veil were lifted. Which can happen if you go to an advanced psychic, or after death).  Which has the same realness as your incarnation 1000000 years ago. Which has the same realness as any other incarnation of you (God). which has the same realness as being Trump. Thus, what you experienced 5 seconds ago has the same realness as Trump's actual sensory experience.

Edited February 4, 2021 by GreenWoods

[Jodo]

On 31/01/2021 at 2:02 PM, Leo Gura said:

Do not just assign the highest degree to some dude you see on YouTube. The chances of him being fully woke are very low.

Exactly. We should carefully apply that scrutiny to ourselves first.  Many of us might have had great insights, experience oneness, Void, being beyond conceptual thought, pure white light, unspeakable bliss and beauty, existing beyond form, the mess of experiences, possibilities, ideas, etc. played at high speed until exhausted in a total blissful Nothing. No words can really convey that state of "mind(?)". You can only point and hint or dance about it , yet we find ourselves here "arguing" with others on a forum. Which is also OK - because "chop wood, carry water..."

[Someone here]

Are you guys done yet? 

So.. This whole idealism /solipsism philosophy (which is Leo's position) is just inapplicable and unfalsifiable. 

Simply put..... You don't know that you are dreaming while you are dreaming.  Right? .... This world falls into the same conception. You just don't know. 

At the practical level however.. To survive in the world.. .. You don't think of your bank account as something your fluffy consciousness are imagining right? Oh no no no.. You think it's objectively existing.  That's all you need to know. You don't need to be certain about it. You can't be certain (see dream argument above). All you need is to adopt the most applicable and practical philosophy. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Someone here

[abrakamowse]

44 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Are you guys done yet? 

Nothing is gonna stop us!

???

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Are you guys done yet? 

So.. This whole idealism /solipsism philosophy (which is Leo's position) is just inapplicable and unfalsifiable. 

Ism.

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Simply put..... You don't know that you are dreaming while you are dreaming.  Right? .... This world falls into the same conception. You just don't know. At the practical level however.. To survive in the world.. .. You don't think of your bank account as something your fluffy consciousness are imagining right? Oh no no no.. You think it's objectively existing.  That's all you need to know. You don't need to be certain about it. You can't be certain (see dream argument above). All you need is to adopt the most applicable and practical philosophy. 

Lucidity.

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

unfalsifiable.

That's the point.

Absolute Truth cannot be falsified.

[Someone here]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the point.

Absolute Truth cannot be falsified.

Absolute Truth in my experience is raw data... Stripped of all and any conceptualization or contextuallization. 

"you are imagining others".. "only YOU exists".. "there is nothing but your experience" etc etc  are as equally stories and concepts as "atoms" and "brains" and "external world". 

[Jodo]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Are you guys done yet? 

So.. This whole idealism /solipsism philosophy (which is Leo's position) is just inapplicable and unfalsifiable. 

Simply put..... You don't know that you are dreaming while you are dreaming.  Right? .... This world falls into the same conception. You just don't know. 

At the practical level however.. To survive in the world.. .. You don't think of your bank account as something your fluffy consciousness are imagining right? Oh no no no.. You think it's objectively existing.  That's all you need to know. You don't need to be certain about it. You can't be certain (see dream argument above). All you need is to adopt the most applicable and practical philosophy. 

You do know you are dreaming in a lucid dream. Try it. It's incredible and a good lesson on how one might deal with waking reality, too. There is even a traditional formal practice in Vajrayana Buddhism - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche has a book on it - Dream Yoga... 

To survive in the world we use the filters and work within those illusions, for sure... if you jump in front of the "illusory" train, you will end up this simulation or whatever it is... Do you want to? What's the purpose of it? I don't know. I am not enlightened about it...

I just know that I am not THAT attached to my bank account, so even if it dries out, I don't identify with being poor or better - I can choose to react in many ways - play the game, do some work to earn money, don't obsess about the new conditions, I just don't panic - I see the bigger picture...

No one here and probably in the world at large arrived at any conclusive, finite knowledge... we are only in awe of the ineffable nature of it all... Not hanging around here long enough to really know what kind of ideas are endorsed as a doctrine or whatever, but I guess it is an open minded space... 

I guess people, when trying to grasp those concepts intellectually, understand them too literally or in a superficial manner - it has to be experiences - Known from within... Sure, you can live the strictly utilitarian way - as you say - a most applicable and practical philosophy, but that is then useful only for "surviving" the life... there are so many layers to this reality and our experience in ALL this...  Don't obsess over definitions... 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Jodo

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Absolute Truth in my experience is raw data... Stripped of all and any conceptualization or contextuallization. 

"you are imagining others".. "only YOU exists".. "there is nothing but your experience" etc etc  are as equally stories and concepts as "atoms" and "brains" and "external world". 

You have not come even close to stripping yourself of your conceptualizations and contexts.

Others are concept. So is anything that isn't you.

[Jodo]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Absolute Truth in my experience is raw data... Stripped of all and any conceptualization or contextuallization. 

"you are imagining others".. "only YOU exists".. "there is nothing but your experience" etc etc  are as equally stories and concepts as "atoms" and "brains" and "external world". 

Absolute Truth is just a concept, too. How can we imagine we have some "Absolute Truth"... not even raw data... What data? Where is it? What is it? But being beyond the conceptualisation and contextualisation is exactly the aim of some practices that try to silence the mind - the origin of those... To abide in an "open awareness"... Bön Buddhism and Dzogchen have some interesting ideas and techniques to use to get there. (so do the psychedelics - but - "set and setting" - who you are is what you get...  ) 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Jodo said:

Absolute Truth is just a concept, too.

No it isn't.

There is a concept of absolute truth, and then there is actual Absolute Truth. Which is why we capitalize it.

But of course your mind will just play the trick of making another concept of Absolute Truth. Those are the games you play.

[Jodo]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No it isn't.

There is a concept of absolute truth, and then there is actual Absolute Truth. Which is why we capitalize it.

But of course your mind will just play the trick of making another concept of Absolute Truth. Those are the games you play.

Well, then it is just a label - you could easily call it "All There Is" or "The Foundation of it All" or "Deus sive Natura" as Spinoza did or "All Encompassing Everything" or "42"... Just names, which are concepts - when we engage the mind - talking, writing on a forum... we cannot not-conceptualize.

And the name is a bit unfortunate - if you call it "Absolute Truth" it invokes two concepts - "Absolute" - the fixed - non-permeable, static state and "Truth" means the one and only conception, explanation, a single focused revelation... I think calling something Absolute Truth while meaning God (as in a All is One ineffable something) is equally misleading and can cause misunderstanding as anything else... I prefer to avoid "absolutes" while communicating... "I know that I don't know" (it all) is better to me. Probably I misunderstood you anyway.

    

Edited February 4, 2021 by Jodo