The External World Does Exist: Reality is more than Consciousness

[Leo Gura]

People don't quite understand what a dream is.

A dream is a thing which seems totally real when you are in it.

Saying, "But it feels so real!" is no disproof of dreaming. That's how all good dreams are.

It's simple. Life is a dream. The end.

[Javfly33]

6 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The Bhagavad Gita teaches that God is the abode of the cosmos.

What does that mean?

The cosmos is not just a dream to be discarded. It is the manifestation of God. The Atman is not just an illusion to be dispelled. It is the incarnation of God. Try getting away from God. You can't, because You are also, mysteriously, God.

The cosmos abides within God, yet God is greater than the cosmos. All of it, ultimate reality and relative reality, is God.

Yeah! That duality between the ultimate and the relative reality is a hard one to let go. It kind of implies you just can´t "escape" the physical realm before actually accepting it and surrendering completely to it.

We are God but at the same time since we are inevitable so we can´t avoid ourselves. Which is kind of trippy if you think about it.

[_Archangel_]

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

COVID-19 exists and has been affecting many people throughout the world.

Covid is appearing IN Coosciousness as as a potato does. the differences/real/unreal - internal/external is appearing IN consciusness as everything else does.

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

If you do not agree that an external world exists, then why shouldn't I leave my drink at a bar instead of watching it and taking it with me?  If there is no external world, then how is it that things are happening behind the scenes?

Immagination includes Concreteness, coherence and perfecly functioning laws. Still, there is nothing happening outside experience, like in a videogame every thing happens in the screen and things come into being in the screen. You can imagine something is happening off-screen, but this thinking would still happen inside experience.

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

outside of my bubble

the notion of "things are happening even when i don't look" is appearing inside your bubble, as all your reasonong and assumptions do, like that there is a bubble in the first place.

 

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

But see, what is the difference really between imagining that an external world exists vs. an external world actually existing, but I do not have access to it since I am experiencing a perspective of it

None, since in both cases you still believe it's true. 

 

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

A Trump supporter or anyone practically can easily justify their worldview or conspiracy theory that "COVID is imaginary, rape is imaginary, Blacks being killed by cops are imaginary, the holocaust is imaginary, Sandyhooks and Parkland shootings are imaginary, and only I exist, etc. etc. etc."

You are misunderstanding what immaginary means. It doesn't mean necessarily mean fake/false, but produced/made up by the Mind.
The reason why Leo stratches it so much is because people usually tend to believe that there is a world of fenomena that is there even if we don't experience it. This is false. the difference between outside and inside is made up INSIDE experience. There is no bubble

Edited January 30, 2021 by _Archangel_

[Reciprocality]

It is correct that it does not mean that we can KNOW that there is NO objective existence, but with it does not follow the negation.

 

Meaning we can not know there is that object outside in its own reality as a seperate entity, although we may believe it does. (or we may believe in the concept of it, for again we are bound to the mind)

[Thought Art]

Just cuz it's conciousness doesn't mean it all fairies and uniorns. Infinite dream, not ice cream... 

reading the into to Labyrinths of reason... spooky.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Thought Art

[Moksha]

32 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

We are God but at the same time since we are inevitable so we can´t avoid ourselves. Which is kind of trippy if you think about it.

God is strange-loopy that way ?

[sleep]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@r0ckyreed No, you are wrong. This is not a matter of debate, opinion, or guesswork. You can become directly conscious that consciousness is Infinite, which means there is nothing outside it.

Do the work. Don't theorize or speculate. You are getting lost in philosophical concepts.

Covid is a dream, just like everything else.

Is that dogma I smell?

[Thought Art]

@sleep find out.

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, sleep said:

Is that dogma I smell?

Absolute Truth has a way of seeming dogmatic, don't it?

Not a bug but a feature.

[ivankiss]

Ime; there is no 'external'. Everything is happening within consciousness. Better yet; consciousness is the only thing that's happening. 

Problem is; the 'ego' likes to project itself onto everything. Thus creating a belief that everything is happening inside of it. When in fact; it is happening within consciousness. This is what creates the confusion - imo. It's a misinterpretation. Hence solipsism.

Consciousness is not happening within Ivan. Ivan is happening within consciousness. 

Big difference.

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Ime; there is no 'external'. Everything is happening within consciousness. Better yet; consciousness is the only thing that's happening. 

Problem is; the 'ego' likes to project itself onto everything. Thus creating a belief that everything is happening inside of it. When in fact; it is happening within consciousness. This is what creates the confusion - imo. It's a misinterpretation. Hence solipsism.

Consciousness is not happening within Ivan. Ivan is happening within consciousness. 

Big difference.

@ivankiss Very good explanation imo 

[abrakamowse]

5 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

but it seems like there is more to life than my own POV if that makes sense

From the Ego POV that's what happens. The bubbles where everyone of us "live" are inside of you... that's what you can't see unless you have a direct experience of that.

The bubbles believe that the other bubble is separated and a different entity, but you are not that bubble entity. You are the whole thing, the only difference is that you tricked yourself (you are reality) into believing you are the small bubble, to experience separation and duality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine

Quote

The two truths doctrine states that there is:

Provisional or conventional truth (Sanskrit saṁvṛti-satya, Pāli sammuti sacca, Tibetan kun-rdzob bden-pa), which describes our daily experience of a concrete world, and

Ultimate truth (Sanskrit, paramārtha-satya, Pāli paramattha sacca, Tibetan: don-dam bden-pa), which describes the ultimate reality as sunyata, empty of concrete and inherent characteristics.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by abrakamowse

[Nahm]

@r0ckyreed

 

8 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

-COVID-19 exists and has been affecting many people throughout the world.  (Sure, you could argue that COVID-19 and the people who are in hospitals right now are imaginary from my perspective, but there is still an external world outside of my perspective that they are occurring in.)

- If you do not agree that an external world exists, then why shouldn't I leave my drink at a bar instead of watching it and taking it with me?  If there is no external world, then how is it that things are happening behind the scenes?  (Ok, you could say that the "things behind the scenes" are imaginary from my limited-egoic POV, but things are still happening whether I am imagining them or not right?  If not, then I should not ever get rohypnol in my drink since everything outside of my bubble is imaginary.)  

Great specific examples. There have been times I’ve wondered this as well. Anyone have any specific insights (as compared to ‘the final analysis’) in this regard? 

Like how was COVID actually created?

How is that people do get poisoned?

Could be productive or helpful in regard to progressive mutations, or an altogether ‘next covid’. 

[Osaid]

7 hours ago, The Buddha said:

I read this in The book of nothing, that are the teachings of Sosan (totally awake being) explained to the general public by Osho. It is said that for whom The Self it is realized It is normal to say the world is illusory as it is felt like that. However, if so that knowledge is kept as dogma for one that is asleep it is of no value. As it is shown in it's way of living by throwing a stone to it's head. The same way believing the world is an ilusion without having awoke is trying to convince yourself with the feeling of being full without ever eating. So it is true that after eating you feel full, but by conveincing yourself that you are full that doesn't mean you have eaten. So for the awake and who has discovered the atman or The Self his statement is the world is an ilusion, so it is felt by him, so it is spoken. To whom is asleep he carries this as a believing not as a feeling, as the believing of being full without eating. So the best way for awakening (Sosan) is everything has to be regareded as true, real and the same substance, nothing can be left out so in the complition of all your being you can eat, you can realize The Self, then it will naturally come to you, i'm full, the world is an ilusion; not the other way arround.

This is especially important with this specific insight, otherwise the ego just panics. Good reply.

[sleep]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolute Truth has a way of seeming dogmatic, don't it?

Not a bug but a feature.

You're my favorite cult leader, leo. Your replies are always interesting. 

[r0ckyreed]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

People don't quite understand what a dream is.

A dream is a thing which seems totally real when you are in it.

Saying, "But it feels so real!" is no disproof of dreaming. That's how all good dreams are.

It's simple. Life is a dream. The end.

@Leo Gura Ok, let's use that analogy to say that we are in a dream where we believe this dream is all there is.  But isn't waking up the process of realizing that there is more to reality than the dream we were in?  In the same way, I am in the dream now saying that there is more to reality than this dream I am.  If there is no reality beyond this dream, then there is no waking up.  You cannot be awakened without being first a dreamer.  What is lucid dreaming without the context of a dream and a reality?  If life is only a dream, then what is the context of waking up?  I am restating my point in the hope that I am making sense because it is difficult to explain.  I am basically trying to go from being a bubble to becoming the entire sponge.  From that analogy, I got that the sponge represents the external world or the entirety of the universe and each of the bubbles represents the infinite perspectives, dreams, or consciousnesses within the universe's existence.  In other words, the sponge is the holder of all of the perceptual bubbles in the same sense that the circle holds the yin and the yang together.  The sponge analogy to me seems to suggest that there are other worlds contained within the field that are outside of my experience while at the same time being connected to my experience.  This suggests to me that there is "an imaginary" "external world" that has all the bubbles contained for which I am only conscious of experiencing each one at a time.  

It really feels like there is more to this world than my own perceptions, which is also the same thing as me saying in my dream that I think there is more to life than what I am experiencing (which of course is a correct assumption; hence, waking up).  If there was nothing, but the dream, then what does it really mean to "wake up?"  Are we just waking up to another dream?  If that is the case, then it wouldn't really be waking up.  Having a lucid dream has to have the context of a reality vs. a dream.  Otherwise, it would be just a pure dream with no context of a "waking up."

Thanks for your time.  

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by r0ckyreed

[Ry4n]

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Ime; there is no 'external'. Everything is happening within consciousness. Better yet; consciousness is the only thing that's happening. 

Problem is; the 'ego' likes to project itself onto everything. Thus creating a belief that everything is happening inside of it. When in fact; it is happening within consciousness. This is what creates the confusion - imo. It's a misinterpretation. Hence solipsism.

Consciousness is not happening within Ivan. Ivan is happening within consciousness. 

Big difference.

Great explanation; there is nothing outside consciousness, and yet there's a whole lot going on outside the ego-mind even if the ego isn't experiencing it. I think too many people are jumping to the (+)I am God/True Self facet of enlightenment before first grasping the (-)No self/emptiness aspect, and thus this confusion happens. Every ego wants to hear that they're God, but no ego wants to hear that they're merely a fabrication of something much deeper.

 

[Ry4n]

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

But isn't waking up the process of realizing that there is more to reality than the dream we were in?

That "more" you speak of is just consciousness itself. The nothingness from which everything arises (that is simultaneously everything paradoxically).

 

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

It really feels like there is more to this world than my own perceptions

We (or at least I) am not saying there isn't. By saying consciousness is all there is is very different than saying the ego and it's tiny individual experience is all there is. This ego is merely another appearance within the field of consciousness. 

[vibv]

@r0ckyreed It‘s a conundrum. Of course there is more than your perception: all other perceptions. But the base of it all is pure consciousness. And ultimately you are that consciousness.

Don’t mistake yourself for r0ckyreed. You are infinite consciousness! 

And at the same time this infinite consciousness dreams up everything you experience right here and right now.

Can you see how both things are true at the same time? It all makes perfect sense, but you have to go beyond logic to really grasp it. You have to see it for yourself. 
Everything I say is imagined by you - so in reality you already know all this but have chosen to forget it. 
 

[Javfly33]

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

Great explanation; there is nothing outside consciousness, and yet there's a whole lot going on outside the ego-mind even if the ego isn't experiencing it. 

Are you aware you are playing the same trick that the materialists by imagining there's something outside of awareness?

Notice you are projecting "consciousness" outside of your direct experience.

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

 

16 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@r0ckyreed quantum mechanics debunked materialism a long time ago - it's just that if is so radical most scientists today either aren't aware or turn a blind eye to the ramifications.  What does your intuition tell you?

@Ry4n 

@Inliytened1 That I am God obviously ?