straight white man hate

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Akira said:

@Forestluv 

should these principles be  applied impartially in all directions or only towards those on the other side of the debate?

That depends on the type and degree of asymmetry. 

[Akira]

13 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

That depends on the type and degree of asymmetry. 

I try to look at what the person is saying regardless of which side they are coming from and try to see if it correlates with reality (as far as I can make reality out, trying to be aware of my own bias, and probably failing)... then I apply the same principles and give an honest response regardless of what group or political persuasion that human being may belong to.

Although I don't always succeed in this I think we should hear each human being out applying the same principles, affording each the same dignity and the same respect regardless of what so called group they belong to... since chances are we are wrong ourselves about many things

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Akira

[Axiomatic]

ahahahaha what a snitch 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Akira said:

I try to look at what the person is saying regardless of which side they are coming from and try to see if it correlates with reality (as far as I can make reality out, trying to be aware of my own bias, and probably failing)... then I apply the same principles and give an honest response regardless of what group or political persuasion that human being may belong to.

Although I don't always succeed in this I think we should hear each human being out applying the same principles, affording each the same dignity and the same respect regardless of what so called group they belong to... since chances are we are wrong ourselves about many thing

Be aware of constructs of the mind. The ego loves to be virtuous. 

This is a question of love and, ultimately, Love is infinite in all directions. Yet this requires complete surrender of the ego and it’s desire for mind control. What we are discussing here are constructs of relative love. Yet again, expanding one’s capacity for relative love involves surrender - layer after layer. 

The idea of treating everyone the same sounds nice on paper, yet is restrictive. For example, when I first became a teacher I wanted to treat every student the same regardless of what so called group they belong to. Yet after a few years, I learned that not every student is the same. I was “colorblind” and “gender blind”.  Yet, I was limiting myself as an educator. And I was limiting my ability to connect with students, love and support them. Each student has their own set of issues and for most students their race, gender and sexuality are issues - whether they are conscious of that or not. There are lots of other issues as well. 

As well the mentality of "I treat everyone with dignity" is great at a personal level, yet does nothing to alleviate systemic racism. Left on it's own, that mindset actually perpetuates systemic racism. So far you've written some vague platitudes about empathy and dignity which sounds great. Yet I haven't seen you acknowledge systemic racism and offer any ideas to alleviate it. 

[Akira]

@Forestluv

13 hours ago, Forestluv said:

The idea of treating everyone the same sounds nice on paper, yet is restrictive. For example, when I first became a teacher I wanted to treat every student the same regardless of what so called group they belong to. Yet after a few years, I learned that not every student is the same. I was “colorblind” and “gender blind”.  Yet, I was limiting myself as an educator. And I was limiting my ability to connect with students, love and support them. Each student has their own set of issues and for most students their race, gender and sexuality are issues - whether they are conscious of that or not. There are lots of other issues as well. 

I don't mean treat them exactly the same I mean hold them to a similar standard of fairness. I'm not going to be more harsh or more forgiving regarding someone's conduct based only on their group identity. If a white person's conduct is X and I chastise them for it I will also chastise a black person when their conduct is X. Treating people unequally based only on group identity leads to resentment, division and backlash, which ultimately retards progress. Of course there may be exceptions and individual circumstance must be taken into account.

Regarding systemic racism, I'll start with this. Identify specific facets of it, describe each carefully with the overriding principle being honesty and truth and good will rather than political ideology. Once we've found a facet gather the evidence that supports it by trying to disprove it rather than beginning with our conclusion. Then present a robust case winning people over to the cause with clear evidence, love, even language and empathy. Not anger, divisive language and rhetoric.

e.g. if black lives matter would reach out to white people by at least acknowledging their existence by using the term white folk as they might refer to themselves as black folk instead of using the term allies (which some might interpret as patronizing) they might win over some non allies instead of preaching to the choir. Lead by example. Put your case with ruthless honesty and then make moves to treat those with the same respect you wish to be treated with(whilst still pushing your case). Acknowledge them in the way you wish to be acknowledged and still ruthlessly push your case.

If someone disagrees with you do you win them over by alienating them further or by GENUINILEY including them as you would include yourself? Of course there has been and will be the need for stronger tactics at certain times and in certain situations; I do not believe this is the case in the western world today. Such an approach would still probably work in the end after years of misunderstanding and hate and division and backlash. However an approach of: here is my case, I won't back down, I will tenaciously present the TRUTH. I acknowledge you I want the best for you, now acknowledge me and help me too - will be more effective as the primary approach

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Akira

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Akira said:

@Forestluv

Regarding systemic racism, I'll start with this. Identify specific facets of it, describe each carefully with the overriding principle being honesty and truth and good will rather than political ideology. Once we've found a facet gather the evidence that supports it by trying to disprove it rather than beginning with our conclusion. Then present a robust case winning people over to the cause with clear evidence, love, even language and empathy. Not anger, divisive language and rhetoric.

As I suspected. Saying we need more research to see if systemic racism exists is a delay and obfuscation tactic. It is akin to those saying lets do more research to see if climate change is real. 

Your platitudes of “let’s all just love each other with empathy” ring hollow to me. 

And you don’t get to dictate that black people who have been subjugated to racism should behave in a manner that is acceptable and comfortable to white people to “win them over”. That is part of the problem that perpetuates racism. 

[Akira]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

As I suspected. Saying we need more research to see if systemic racism exists is a delay and obfuscation tactic. It is akin to those saying lets do more research to see if climate change is real. 

Your platitudes of let’s all just love each other with empathy ring hollow to me. 

Be nice dude...

I believe it exists... I think the world will be better when it no longer exists. I think an important part of getting there is by building a more robust case by being scrupulous with the truth so people cannot poke holes and ultimately feel justified in dismissing the case. I think Sam Harris does a pretty good job of the kind of thing I'm talking about in this podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU

 

[Emerald]

Sure, it's possible for you to be the target of hatred for your gender, sexuality, and skin color. Hatred is a human emotion, so anyone can hate anyone for any reason. And it isn't a good thing, obviously.

But I'd imagine that it probably doesn't happen all that often to you on the basis of your demographics, as you happen to belong to groups that are seen by society at large as simply being the default for personhood... and thus these demographic elements are not really noticed as much compared to how much these demographic elements would stand out if you were female, gay, or if you were a person of color. 

But beyond this, you must realize that context matters... and contextually, straight white men are not systemically oppressed as a result of these demographic factors.

And systemic oppression IS what racism/sexism/homophobia is at its core. And it runs a lot deeper than just people hating or being mean. 

So, yes... people can hate you and be mean to you based on your demographics, and it isn't very nice. 

But it isn't the same thing as systemic oppression... which you may not even fathom of what that truly entails having by chance hit a BINGO on your demographic factors. 

Systemic oppression runs much deeper and has far-reaching consequences for someone's life.

A handful of blue-haired SJWs on Tumblr saying "I hate white men", simply does not have far-reaching consequences on your life... even if it gets on your nerves or hurts your feelings a bit. 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, Akira said:

I think an important part of getting there is by building a more robust case by being scrupulous with the truth so people cannot poke holes and ultimately feel justified in dismissing the case. 

People have been doing that for decades. It’s 2021, not 1981. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating systemic racism. Systemic racism deniers are not going to be convinced by more data. Don’t be so naive. 

What you are saying is akin to “Let’s not take action on climate change. Yes there has been decades of research proving climate change, yet lets wait and do some more research so we can win over climate change deniers that cannot be won over”. 

[Blackbeat]

On 30/01/2021 at 1:18 AM, wwhy said:

All the best with that, keep at it. Do not get too sucked in with all the stories and BS of the world.

On 29/01/2021 at 2:13 PM, Hansu said:

 

@wwhy I'd try keep that in mind, your wisdom is appreciated

[Akira]

Just now, Forestluv said:

People have been doing that for decades. There are mountains of evidence of systemic racism. Systemic racism deniers are not going to be convinced by more data. Don’t be so naive. 

What you are saying is akin to “Let’s not take action on climate change. Yes there has been decades of research proving climate change, yet lets wait and do some more research so we can win over climate change deniers that cannot be won over”. 

Nope... check out that podcast, he goes over some data regarding police shootings if I remember correctly... nobody would ever suspect that was the actual data if their source of information was Black Lives Matter... this is actually an important point... because many people see Black Lives Matter, then they look at the actual data and then they say to themselves: "ah see, I knew I was right all along" and they feel justified in dismissing the case outright which is unfortunate indeed! 

Those on your side are on your side. You need to win over some of those who are not on your side unless you want more Trumpism and civil unrest. Since the evidence is strong do not taint it at all! Never ever! Stick to that evidence with tenacity and don't creep one step beyond it

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Akira said:

Those on your side are on your side. You need to win over some of those who are not on your side unless you want more Trumpism and civil unrest. Since the evidence is strong do not taint it at all! Never ever! Stick to that evidence with tenacity and don't creep one step beyond it

Persuasion is one piece of the puzzle. Yet to me, you are too contracted into persuasion. 

Another piece is taking bold action and you don’t cower to white nationalists because you don’t want to upset them. Yes, there needs to be a critical mass of white people to join in for progress, yet white nationalists will not be persuaded. If we wait to win over white nationalists, there will never be progress. 

Part of progress on involves taking bold action and having to drag 35% of the population along as they kick and scream. Bold action itself is persuasive. Look at the trajectory of public opinion on same sex marriage. With your strategy, we would still be doing research to build a rock solid case that homosexuality is natural to persuade evangelical homophobes. And we wouldn’t have made as much progress. 

[Akira]

4 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Persuasion is one piece of the puzzle. Yet to me, you are too contracted into persuasion. 

Another piece is taking bold action and you don’t cower to white nationalists because you don’t want to upset them. Yes, there needs to be a critical mass of white people to join in for progress, yet white nationalists will not be persuaded. If we wait to win over white nationalists, there will never be progress. 

Part of progress on involves taking bold action and having to drag 35% of the population along as they kick and scream. Bold action itself is persuasive. Look at the trajectory of public opinion on same sex marriage. With your strategy, we would still be doing research to build a rock solid case that homosexuality is natural to persuade evangelical homophobes. And we wouldn’t have made as much progress. 

Sticking to the truth is not just about persuasion friend It's about providing a solid ground we can stand on as a civilisation and about not deluding and radicalising those already on our side into a mob of fury which only stokes the fire...

I'm all for bold action but it would be better if it were fronted with a battering ram of truth rather than than a brigade of ideologues

please do check out the podcast if you would like more details on the kind of approach I'm advocating for

 

ps I swear to you I personally know people who were pretty progressive people who have been somewhat radicalized and voted for trump as a result of the tactics and rhetoric used by black lives matter

[Opo]

13 hours ago, Forestluv said:

 over 90% of rape victims are women. 

?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2449454/More-men-raped-US-women-including-prison-sexual-abuse.html

[Forestluv]

8 hours ago, Akira said:

Sticking to the truth is not just about persuasion friend It's about providing a solid ground we can stand on as a civilisation and about not deluding and radicalising those already on our side into a mob of fury which only stokes the fire...

I'm all for bold action but it would be better if it were fronted with a battering ram of truth rather than than a brigade of ideologues

ps I swear to you I personally know people who were pretty progressive people who have been somewhat radicalized and voted for trump as a result of the tactics and rhetoric used by black lives matter

Of course there can be Green excess, yet imo you’ve gone into Green Shadowland and concern troll. 

You are spending much more effort criticizing those speaking out against racism, than racism itself. Yes, those with strong racist tendencies have likely been conditioned in toxic environment. There is some empathy for that. I would support social services like treatment / therapy. Yet that doesn’t excuse accountability for such behavior. We can have empathy for an abuser, yet that doesn’t mean we should coddle the abuser, hyper criticize victim advocates and let abusers off the hook. That will enable, empower and perpetuate abusers. Especially for abusers that don’t come in good faith and are trying to manipulate others. There needs to be accountability and structures in place to prevent such behavior.  

[Akira]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

Of course there can be Green excess, yet imo you’ve gone into Green Shadowland and concern troll. 

You are spending much more effort criticizing those speaking out against racism, than racism itself. Yes, those with strong racist tendencies have likely been conditioned in toxic environment. There is some empathy for that. I would support social services like treatment / therapy. Yet that doesn’t excuse accountability for such behavior. We can have empathy for an abuser, yet that doesn’t mean we should coddle the abuser, hyper criticize victim advocates and let abusers off the hook. That will enable, empower and perpetuate abusers. Especially for abusers that don’t come in good faith and are trying to manipulate others. There needs to be accountability and structures in place to prevent such behavior.  

Thanks for taking the time to engage with me in this discussion. I see where you are coming from and I'll consider it going forward. I do have a bias towards criticizing  those speaking out against racism. However if we are to advocate for fair treatment and justice we should hold ourselves to that standard. And I am triggered by those who speak out against racism (who are not all victim advocates but are often middle class student/activists who have arrived at their conclusions via peer pressure and one sided education) who are frankly ignorant and ideological and do not care to educate themselves on the complexities of the issue: their minds are closed to the other side of the debate (for now). Even if one side has more points, both sides have some points... and both sides are human beings... I think we'll find a better way forward when we learn to hear each other... and I think we can do that

 

Cheers my man!

If you reply I'll read it but I wont be responding as my internet sabbatical begins today

All the best mate

Edited January 31, 2021 by Akira

[Thought Art]