Being triggered by vegans

[Michael569]

20 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

f this turns out to be true, and vegan diet does indeed cause fertility problems, then this is pretty much free, self-run eugenics program that you guys are doing. I guess keep it going 

Only if you do it wrong, if you enter any fertility or IVF clinic, 90% of those women won't be vegans. 

Veganism can be done beautifully where the person thrives on all levels but also horribly which is, I suppose, what the article is referring to. 

Just to break their points down: folic acid is EXTREMELY easy to get on plant based diet and most vegans know they need to supplement B12. B12 and folic acid deficiency are very prevalent in non-vegans even those consuming lots of meat. I do agree that many vegans ignore their Omega 3 requirements and this can be an issue so algal oil is an easy way around it. 

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Why gas chamber? My brother slaughters the animals with his own hands. 
And I have already informed that yes, this is how they survive.

Let us not talk about your brother, let us talk about you. Whether it is a gaschamber or a knife, as long as you take yourself the right to kill the animal or pay for it's death, I will take myself the right to confront you about it.

If you truly believe you need animal products to survive, all I can tell you is to get your information from proper reliable sources.

 

Do you agree that if you do not need to consume animal products to survive, that it would be immoral to buy them and support industries that enslave and kill animals?

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

29 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes, this is true. But also not true, only from your current perspective this is valid. Relativity itself is relative. This is the beauty of Creation. You will not capture this with the mind, infact you cannot capture this with your own perspective. Any perspective, and belief about relativity you offer, will not escape this.

Danio, you are facing the issue of attempting to capture the arational with a rational mind. This within the concept-thought structure will lead to all kinds of loops. It is much like attempting to capture a 3d object on a 2d surface. How could you possible capture the entirety of the 3d object on the 2d surface? It will always be a snapshot of the object. And even worse, if you try to capture all of the 3d object from all it's 2d angles, you will have a mess. There will be lines over lines, contradictions of positions of corners. Corners will be at multiple places at once, and edges too! And you still don't have the 3d object, you still only have 2d shapes.

 

This is what happens when the mind tries to take relativity into the realm of the rational. The arational is unconstraint, rationality is constraint.

 

So, all of this what you say does not really change anything about what I say. Everything I say functions the same way under your relative paradigm of relativity.

   This is simple not true. I've captured worlds in my mind, and I've done it ones, means I can do it some more in the future, regardless if it's relative to another person's mind incapable of capturing worlds. Yet this is difficult to put into words, hence relativity of limited understanding. If what it takes is the relative removal of some other worlds, that's the meaning of creating. To create, empty first. Relatively speaking.

   Thanks to relativity, some things get to either impose or not impose stuff onto other things.

[Scholar]

11 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Spare me the dramatics. “Pay for its death” loL It’s food.
Try going berry picking into the forest during the season of hungry bears. See how far you’re gonna make it.

Again, all this nonsense talk is from you having had free access to food, and the most extreme thing you had to do in order to stay alive and not starve to death is go to a grocery store.

 

I think you are making my argument. The most extreme thing we are doing to survive is going to the grocery store, yet we keep justifying the killing of animals by comparing us to carnivores who live in the wild and have to survive every day. We don't need to consume animals, kill them in this way, and we certainly are not predators living in the wild.

To me, animals are individuals. I view them as my brothers and sisters. I think it is unfortunate that you would view them as nothing but food. They are living, feeling creatures just like you are. A bear will eat you because he has to survive, and because he has no moral agency.

 

It is sad to me that people today have less respect of animals than our ancestors who actually needed to kill them to survive. They were respectful of each animal, to them they were not just food. They knew that the animals they were killing we no different from them, just trying to survive in a harsh world.

It wasn't until the advent of agriculture and religions that view the human as somehow seperate from nature that people started to view animals, and other races of people as property on a larger scale.

 

Animals are not food, they are our brothers and sisters. This is not about drama, this is about compassion.

 

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   This is simple not true. I've captured worlds in my mind, and I've done it ones, means I can do it some more in the future, regardless if it's relative to another person's mind incapable of capturing worlds. Yet this is difficult to put into words, hence relativity of limited understanding. If what it takes is the relative removal of some other worlds, that's the meaning of creating. To create, empty first. Relatively speaking.

   Thanks to relativity, some things get to either impose or not impose stuff onto other things.

I think you have much yet to learn, but I am the wrong person to teach you.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@datamonster

22 minutes ago, datamonster said:

@K Ghoul and anyone concerned about health and vegan diets, this is what the largest food and nutrition organization in the world has to say:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/).

Health organizations in other countries take a similar perspectives.

   From a properly planned diet.  And that's assuming the preparations are solid to begin vegan based.

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

@Scholar If you have so much love and respect for the animals, then look into the consequences and the effects that the industrial agriculture needed to support your “love” for them is doing to them.

I have done so. The main driver of environmental destruction is animal agriculture, after all the animals we consume must themselves consume plants. If the world were to go vegan, we could reduce landusage and rewild, or do anything else, with a large amount of land that we currently use for animal agriculture. On the other hand, if we continue to increase our meat consumption, we will soon require multiple earths to support all the animals that are being fed soy.

With grass fed animals this problem is even worse, because the land needed is substantially greater.

 

So yes, my love and respect for the animals lead me to determine that animal agriculture is terrible on both ends, the collateral damage and the direct impact it has on the animals. It is not simply a rights violation, but also has a more detrimental consequential impact.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Scholar

[StarStruck]

39 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Only if you do it wrong, if you enter any fertility or IVF clinic, 90% of those women won't be vegans. 

Veganism can be done beautifully where the person thrives on all levels but also horribly which is, I suppose, what the article is referring to. 

Just to break their points down: folic acid is EXTREMELY easy to get on plant based diet and most vegans know they need to supplement B12. B12 and folic acid deficiency are very prevalent in non-vegans even those consuming lots of meat. I do agree that many vegans ignore their Omega 3 requirements and this can be an issue so algal oil is an easy way around it. 

B12 in a pill and B12 in meat is not the same. And secondly bio-availability is not the same.

[Scholar]

12 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

And I view them as food. What’s your point?

What do you mean what is my point? I don't think it is okay to view them as food, much like I don't think it is okay to view children as sex-toys.

 

I am just trying to tell you that these individuals are important to me and that I consider them my brothers and sisters, and that I will protect and advocate for them. I think you are being cruel and apathetic.

 

9 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

What is this, Environmental Science 101? My college transcript says I got A+ on it, no need to educate me on anything here.

This isn’t a matter of me knowing less and you knowing more or vice versa. We have fundamentally different perspective for other reasons. 

Then I don't understand what you meant when you asked whether or not I have looked into the consequences of industrial agriculture, I am sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you meant that somehow industrial plant agriculture is worse than the animal agriculture, which is not the case.

If you meant something else, please clarify.

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, StarStruck said:

@Emerald

That is my whole point. It is not mutually exclusive. Vegan diet is not always more environmentally friendly. It really depends on the person.

I'm not judgemental and pretentious about vegans. My diet is almost vegan. I only eat small amounts of good quality meat because my body needs it. Not every body is the same. Some human body's just don't run on a vegan diet. Especially if you are tall or/and have a big brain. There are enough studies to prove this.

Perhaps I will switch to artificial meat if it comes out. B12 vitamins doesn't work for me. 

First off, a Vegan diet is almost always more environmentally friendly (with maybe the exception being if someone consumes tons of almonds or palm oil). And the reason why is because the animals we consume as food, consume a lot more than we do. And industrial farming practices cause a lot of pollution and contribute significantly to the impacts of global warming.

So, my question to you is... 'Given the above facts, how are Vegan diets less environmentally friendly on the whole compared to Omnivorous diets?'

And if it's the case that you find that Vegan diets are actually MORE environmentally friendly on the whole compared to Omnivorous diets, then why aren't you decrying the poor environmental effects of Omnivorous diets?

What is the reason for your inconsistency in concern for the environmental impact of particular diets? In your eyes, are the negative environmental effects caused by Omnivorous diets okay while the negative environmental effects caused by Vegan diets are not okay, even though Omnivorous diets cause more environmental problems?

Now, I don't doubt that a very small minority of people must eat animal products to thrive. But we have to be careful when we try out a Vegan diet to not let our cravings make us make up a story that "Oh well. I tried. But I guess I'm just one of those people that need meat to survive." The mind can come up with all kids of rationalizations so that we can justify doing behaviors that we disagree with but still want to do. The mind is tricky like that. 

Also, can you link me to the studies that have shown tall people and people with big brains need to consume animal products? 

And what do you mean that b12 doesn't work for you? It takes like 2-5 years to burn through the b12 that's stored in your body. So, you can go a very long time without taking any b12 supplements. 

So, unless you've been Vegan for over 2 years and found that b12 doesn't work... I'm just not sure what you mean by this.

And furthermore, there is no reason to temper your meat eating habits by saying that you eat a nearly Vegan diet... or by saying that you will switch to artificial meat if it comes out. It's of little consequence to me if you personally go Vegan or not. So, I'm not judging you. I ate an omnivorous diet for 26 years of my life.

But I wonder if you're judging yourself and justifying it to me because you're judging you... and then projecting your judgments of you onto me. 

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Yes, what I meant is that because of the population growth we need now to plant more in order to accommodate the needs of everyone. The issues such are soil erosion become very serious, and then the problem with irrigation - because of the use of pesticides in such huge quantities the water run off brings all those nutrients into the seas, causing eutrophication, which then leads to dead zones literally killing all of the marine life within those areas.

I bring up this one example that comes to mind because I studied it too - I love animals, and seeing what we are doing to them through our activities is breaking my heart. Think about deforestation that will need to take place to free up room for growing more crops - we are expected to be at 9 billion by 2050 in terms of the size of our population.

The majority of farmland is used to grow food to feed livestock. It's like 80% of farmland here in America... and similar numbers in other places. So, we would use less farmland if the entire world happened to go Vegan.

Pigs and Cows eat a lot more than human beings do. So, in order for us to eat them, we need to feed them and raise them. So, the keeping of livestock is the number one cause of problems like soil erosion, pesticides, and eutrophication as well.

[Scholar]

16 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Yes, what I meant is that because of the population growth we need now to plant more in order to accommodate the needs of everyone. The issues such are soil erosion become very serious, and then the problem with irrigation - because of the use of pesticides in such huge quantities the water run off brings all those nutrients into the seas, causing eutrophication, which then leads to dead zones literally killing all of the marine life within those areas.

I bring up this one example that comes to mind because I studied it too - I love animals, and seeing what we are doing to them through our activities is breaking my heart. Think about deforestation that will need to take place to free up room for growing more crops - we are expected to be at 9 billion by 2050 in terms of the size of our population.

I genuinely do believe that it is natural survival mechanism for us to eat meat. And the only reason this has become a problem is because our species (humans) have outnumber the number of any other species in such amount that the balance has been tipped off so bad, that we can no longer manage naturally, and are forced to be coming up with this artificial alternative ways of sustaining ourselves.

I want nothing more for everyone to live happy, and in peace, and happiness means different things depending on how from whose perspective you look at it. Take that lion video for example- lion is happy, warthog - not so much. If warthog escaped - warthog would be happy, lion - not so much.

But the problems you are mentioning, like soil erosion, pesticide run off, dead zones and so forth are all worse in the animal agriculture compared to if we were to simply consume the plants. We need more crops because we are feeding them to animals, all of the problems of overpopulation will only be far worse if people continue to consume animals products. I don't see how this is an argument against veganism, to me you are making arguments in support of it.

To me it is irrelevant what our natural survival mechanisms are, because were are civilized now. We cannot justify what we are doing to others because it is natural, because nature is not moral. In nature, lions kill the baby lions of other lions. In nature, lions rape other lions. In nature, humans rape and kill each other. All of these things are natural, but we do not deem them to be good.

 

If you want nothing but everyone to live happy and in peace, then I think veganism is a step in the right direction for you. The lion is surviving, you live in civilization. You can eat plants, not animals, like a gorilla does.

There is no need to for us to enslave animals, infact it is very impractical. We are wasting so much land and ressources, and we are destroying nature. Just look at what overfishing is doing to the oceans, it is terrible.

 

I think what we need to establish first is more sensitvity to other life. We have to be more sensitive than the lion, we have to have compassion, because we have a great responsibility being the species that governs this planet. This increase in sensitivity means that we view animals not as objects, food or slaves, but rather as our brothers and sisters.

[Emerald]

Just now, K Ghoul said:

And if we didn’t have this pressure of monitoring how much farmland we can afford to have, this would have never even become a problem.

But you were the one that just brought up with your concerns about how the Vegan diet would cause these issues around expansion of farmland.  That's what you said your concern was... that if we all went Vegan, we'd take up too much farmland and cause all these environmental problem.

And now, I've answered to your concerns about farmlands expansion and environmental issues it causes and presented you with information that shows that Veganism would actually decrease the amount of farmland used because we wouldn't be farming cattle that eat a ton more crops than human beings could ever hope to.

Then, you respond instead by moving the goal posts and saying that the issue isn't farmland expansion and the environmental impacts of it. But instead, the issue is that we have the pressure of monitoring how much farmland we can afford to have. 

It just shows me that your concern was not for the environmental impact of particular diets from the get go.

It was that you have a dislike of the Vegan diet and decided that you were going to reach for ANY argument that debunks it. But you accidentally didn't think it through and made a pro-Vegan argument by bringing up the issue of farmland expansion, which Veganism answers to.

So, you had to move the goal posts, so that you could still continue to maintain your anti-Vegan stance while cloaking it in the veneer of concern for environmental issues.

Am I right?

 

 

[PureRogueQ]

Is your problem with how animals get treated or value?

If it is value ,what is your value, how much your existence gives to ecosystem and how much it takes? Think about this well. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[Preety_India]

4 hours ago, K Ghoul said:

Claim that going vegan is unhealthy is true

Hey, tell me about the health risks of going Vegan. 

I'm vegan since 6 months now. 

I would like to know if I made a mistake. 

I'm very new to all this. 

 

[Preety_India]

@datamonster where? 

[Jacob Morres]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:52 PM, StarStruck said:

I'm always heavily triggered by vegans

yeah cuz vegans are actually nice/normal people. go to a vegan event. the majority aren't militant like the ones you see on youtube. i know this because i also used to have a bunch of judgements toward vegans. they're just reg people. 

there was a time where i would ask my sister about veganism and about the stuff i'd see on youtube. id be like doesnt it trigger you when people eat meat and then she'd just say yeah im just vegan because it was a way to be healthy and take care of myself

esp since there are diff reasons ppl are/go vegan: 

- religious/cultural 

- dietary necessity 

- dietary benefit

- ethical/environmental concern

- trendy

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[StarStruck]

@Preety_India you won't notice anything being vegan within 5 months, it takes at least 1,5 years for your body's B12, creatine and iron to deplete. Afterwards you will slowly decay. Some people just last longer than others because of body type. Look at the video below.

And AGAIN... vitamin pills are NOT(!) a replacement for the bio-available nutrients found exclusively in animal products. They might have the same name but for your body it is not the same. 

12 hours ago, datamonster said:

@K Ghoul and anyone concerned about health and vegan diets, this is what the largest food and nutrition organization in the world has to say:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/).

Health organizations in other countries take a similar perspectives.

This sums it up. I don't know what we are discussing here. Vegan diet + small amounts of meat. It defeats all the environmental complaints by vegans and you are literally not starving yourself to death.

Stage green ideology and dogma tried to guilt-trip me into veganism but one doesn't have to become full vegan. There is a grey area. Reducing meat consumption is a way to go. Educating consumers and upping the quality of meat should be our priority.

Edited January 26, 2021 by StarStruck

[Preety_India]

@neutralempty thank you lol I was very scared. Will stick to my vegan 

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, datamonster said:

I don't think half the world will go vegan any time soon. But if we all just consumed half the amount of meat, the effect for the planet and the animals would be exactly the same. The latter is definitely achievable.

[StarStruck]

2 hours ago, datamonster said:

1) Why not? Why can't they be even better?

2) We feed tons of supplements to animals, so you're really getting many of your vitamins from supplements even if you eat meat. It's just less direct.

Absolutely.

I don't think half the world will go vegan any time soon. But if we all just consumed half the amount of meat, the effect for the planet and the animals would be exactly the same. The latter is definitely achievable.

If you can reduce by 100% I think that's even better. If not, every contribution counts.

I will contribute by eating a fat t-bone tonight. All these discussions made me hungry. Lions gotta eat. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by StarStruck