When did stage orange rationality come online?

[andyjohnsonman]

I was listening to the daily evolver podcast today with Jeff Salzmon and he was saying rationality has only been online in the west for 200 years. Before that we were pre-rational without logic, science and reason and therefore couldn't think about things in a critical way (just conformed with the crowd in a very blue way). However didnt the Greeks invent logic and rationality? So surely rationality was online pre the industrial era. It would be nice to use spiral dynamics more to tie it in with history I feel this would make it more rounded. If anyone has some resources for this I would appreciate it.

[Gesundheit]

From the spiral dynamics site https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/orange/:

"What is the origin of the Orange Value system?

Period:

2500 years ago

Geographical location:

Greece

Founders:

Thales, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and Ptolemy

In reaction to:

In the stable and save Blue world, there’s now room for the individual to expand and develop his or her talents. The lack of freedom in the Blue value system causes bitterness at an individual level, which awakens the need for self-determination. The individual wants to feel free to determine his or hers own life, form his or hers own opinion, and to search for his or hers own truth. The individual shakes of the wait-and-see attitude of Blue and has the drive (and is confident about his or hers own mental capacities) to now reap the fruits of material abundance life is offering. Success in Blue has increased abundance and the start of urbanization. The importance of trade, competition and money as a means of exchange is increasing. Life conditions are more and more experienced in terms of chances and opportunities. Earthly life and a worldly way of thinking becomes more valuable than religious spheres, and cognition, ratio and scientific thinking are emerging as the most dominant paradigms. Joy of living, and celebrating your successes are increasingly more important than living for the afterlife."

[Carl-Richard]

Depends how you intepret "coming online". In my uninformed opinion, the needle you have to thread here isn't about whether or not rationality existed 2500 years ago, but whether or not Stage Orange as a whole existed back then (and to which degree; how popular it was). You have to not single out one thing (like rational thought) but instead look at the phenomena of Orange. What distinguishes a stereotypical modern Orange person from people like Pythagoras and Plato? And just as important, how is the Orange world different from ancient Greece?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Dryas]

I think

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment?wprov=sfti1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution?wprov=sfti1

 

[andyjohnsonman]

When I say came online i mean the mass culture started to be at this stage. Yes this is what i'm torn between as the website shows it originated around 400BC with Plato and Socrates. But the scientific revolution, age of enlightenment and industrial revolution were around the 1700s so it seems the greek philosophers were just a fringe case and actually stage orange didn't come online until the 1700s

Edited January 24, 2021 by andyjohnsonman

[andyjohnsonman]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You have to not single out one thing (like rational thought)

Yea thats a good point. So its possible that these Greek philosophers were rational but still at earlier stages but then again i thought one of the main points of determining stage orange was rationality.

[Rilles]

Age of Enlightenment and then hit a peak around 1900s with Logical Positivism even though its still ongoing of course.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Yea thats a good point. So its possible that these Greek philosophers were rational but still at earlier stages but then again i thought one of the main points of determining stage orange was rationality.

They laid the ground work for Orange in many ways by exploring the cognitive aspects (and some political aspects) of the stage, but there are so many different aspects of Orange that couldn't arise in that climate due to the surrounding underdeveloped culture.

"Rationality" as a way of life is of course Orange, and the Greek philosophers started that, but realize that they were extremely cutting edge for their time. They didn't have a lot to go on but their own speculative theories. Orange didn't truly start to seep into the public arena before the Enlightenment period (which is what I'm interpreting as "coming online" regarding the OP's question). The groundwork had then been laid and society was evolving on multiple fronts to embrace this new level of development.

The question about how rational the Greek philosophers really were is also not so straightforward. Realize how privileged we are to grow up in a culture where so called formal operational cognition (Piaget) is a main course in our childhood diet. It's so easy to underestimate the power of this dynamic unless you've actually travelled back in time or travelled to some very underdeveloped country. Today's children in modern society will for this reason start to unlock the cognitive capacities of Orange at around 11 on average.

The Greek philosophers were essentially just at the cusp of that level (although comparing the minds of a child and an adult is rather frisky). They were pushing the edge of the culture step by step, all on their own. Imagine the absolute genius it takes to be stuck with no previously laid down groundwork, no theoretical frameworks, nothing but your own imagination, and then trying to understand the world with essentially the level of nuanced thinking of a modern day 11 year old. Mindblowing stuff.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

On the topic of genius, Socrates was supposedly at the same level of non-dual awareness as Buddha and Jesus according to Ramaji's LOC 1-1000 system. It's maybe not surprising considering the impact he had on Greek society and the level of charisma and fanbase he built up during his life.

Personally, I think it makes sense when you look at his teachings: "I know that I know nothing", his concern with truth and its relationship to the divine, the fact that he didn't actually bother to create a metaphysical model (unlike Plato) and instead just prefered asking people questions and exposing their ignorance . The way he accepted his death by drinking the poison chalice also seemed rather selfless:

Quote

Socrates uses his death as a final lesson for his pupils rather than fleeing when the opportunity arises, and faces it calmly.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Socrates

If you look at Jesus and the way people interpreted his teachings through a Blue lens, the same could've happened for Socrates but through an Orange lens. In that sense, it looks like behind every large cultural shift in history, there is a mystic trying to spread the word of God  

Edited January 24, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[soos_mite_ah]

I feel like mass culture came into orange and kept going deeper into orange in the 1900s at least in the U.S. There was plenty of blue still there in say the 1920s but it really started moving towards orange. 

[eggopm3]

Stages appear in individuals long before they appear in the collective culture. So on an individual level Orange rationality came online around the time of Socrates Plato and the like, but on a larger cultural scale it came online around the time of the age of enlightenment reaching a cultural peak throughout the 1900s.

Edited January 24, 2021 by eggopm3

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, eggopm3 said:

Stages appear in individuals long before they appear in the collective culture. So on an individual level Orange rationality came online around the time of Socrates Plato and the like, but on a larger cultural scale it came online around the time of the age of enlightenment reaching a cultural peak throughout the 1900s.

It's not that simple though. The culture and the individuals inside it live in a transactional relationship: they're constantly impacting eachother while it inches its way up the developmental ladder. It's not merely a question about cognitive development. If you can't express your Orangeness in the culture you're living, it's not a mature or grounded expression of that stage. Culture wasn't anywhere near Orange 2500 years ago. 

The reason why so many people are Orange today is exactly because the culture is centered around Orange. Green is also getting well-established for that same reason. It's not like you had mature Orange or Green people 2500 years ago, even the 0,1% most advanced people were at most only expressing bits and pieces of the cognitive aspects of those stages. The cognitive aspect is just one of many.