what your thought on the dictatorship of the proletariat?

[TheSomeBody]

is this way much better than the dictatorship of the bourgeois? ( aka "liberal democracy") .

the dictatorship of the proletariat is a democratic way of the proletariat to controll the state. this way the state is will not be controlled by the bourgeois class and make the economy better because the poletariat seeing the contradictions in the economy opposed to the bourgeois that might know about the contradictions but will profit from them short-term so they will not do anything to change it the right way. for example the colldge debt in the usa is pretty stupid way to run a country but the bourgeois are profiting from this becuase free (or cheaper) education will costs them lots of taxes and also some bourgeois will lose their way of making money.  of course that in the long term free education is better for the bourgeois class but this class looks for short term gains . the poletariat can see that education will help them and also help the economy so if they had the power they will push for free education 

[Preety_India]

I think it's the bourgeoisie which is the real problem and not the proletariat. As long as the proletarians are consumed into the system for the welfare of the system, I just don't see any problem. 

But the bourgeoisie profiting from enforcing strange rules to serve their own good is the reason why the proletariat will keep shrinking ultimately gobbling up the bourgeoisie.. 

[DocWatts]

My view is that the class distinctions proposed in Marxist Theory aren't so much wrong as they are a Reductionist and somewhat outdated way of looking at Society.  Sure, divisions between people who own Capitol and people who sell their labor do exist, but some people on the far Left cling to 150 year old theory like nothing's changed over the course of the last century and a half.

Here's just one Concrete example of how Marx's Theory is outdated: it fails to make a clear distinction between service industry workers and creative professionals, who in a technical sense are both proletariat because they both sell their labor rather than having access to Capitol; but still live in two different worlds as far as how creatively fulfilled they are, and how much control they have over their lives. 

A more updated model, though still somewhat Reductionist, has been proposed, and looks something like:
- The Precarait (A general term for people in society who happen to find themselves suffering from precarious socio-economic conditions, and are excluded in some degree from making meaningful contributions to society. This would include both the working class as well as many middle class people whose livelihoods are being threatened by globalization and automation).
 - The Consumptariat (People who benefit from more stable socio-economic conditions, but are out of step with the larger culture, and are excluded from Contributing to society, only participating in it as Consumers.).
- The Neocrats (The movers an shakers of Society, who possess the cultural capitol and skills to meaningfully contribute to our globalized, digitized age).

Edited January 25, 2021 by DocWatts

[Preety_India]

@DocWatts can you give examples of each of these? 

 

[DocWatts]

@Preety_India
I'll preface this by saying that this is also a somewhat Reductionist account for the problems facing Society, but as opposed to Marx's 150 year old theory, this is at least more representative of the world we now live in.

The Precariat : General term for people living in postindustrial economies who possess low Social Capitol, and are subjected to a precarious socio-economic existence
- Most people working in Service Industry jobs such as Retail, who don't make a living wage and possess little to no job security
- People who still work in formerly middle class blue collar jobs (like coal mining or truck driving) which are quickly becoming obsolete, and who are facing the looming threat of losing their livelihoods
- People who provide vital services (home care workers, teachers) whose work isn't rewarded by the market, and who typically work for low wages (if in the private sector), or are aren't given the tools and support to do their jobs (public sector workers like teachers).
- These people provide the base of support for populist movements both on the Left and the Right

The Consumptariat : Refers to people who may or may not be well off economically, but who don't possess the Social and Informational Capitol to contribute in a meaningful and fulfilling way to Postindustrial society.  Their role is instead reduced from one of participation to passive consumption.
- Older people who the digital revolution has passed by. (Think of your grandparent who doesn't know how to use a Computer, and needs help logging on to facebook, and then proceed to share fake news articles because they don't know any better).
- People who are in a position of financial stability due to reaping the rewards of the old, pre-digitized system, but whose skills are no longer those that are required to secure a comfortable existence
- People lacking media literacy, and who consume media passively and uncritically. Fox News viewers are the most obvious example that come to mind.
- Includes most toxic aspects of materialist consumer culture. Includes people who are driven to consume  and display material wealth as a measure of social status, but who aren't contributing to postindustrial culture in any meaningful way
- Can include people whose cultural norms are threatened by the direction society is heading in
- There is a lot of overlap with the Precariat, but can include people who are financial well off that are nonetheless excluded from participation in society

The Netocrats  (aka the postindustrial aristocracy): Refers to people who possess the cultural capitol to thrive in a Postindustrial economy
- Software engineers, digital artists, social media influencers, venture capitalists. People working in skilled trades that can't be outsourced or automated.
- People who are tech and media savvy, and are in a position to contribute to the cultural environment, rather than just being a passive consumer
- People who have the skillset and cultural capitol to enjoy a secure existence in a postindustrial, digitized economy
- People whose cultural norms aren't threatened by the direction that society is heading in

Precariat wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat#:~:text=In sociology and economics%2C the,portmanteau merging precarious with proletariat.
Brief description of The Consumptariat
https://books.google.com/books?id=auBiDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT285&lpg=PT285&dq=Consumptariat&source=bl&ots=t1lplU1E87&sig=ACfU3U3c_tS9eRapqfM7QpzZehStK0oyTQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC8LyqqrfuAhU5AZ0JHTgOBlAQ6AEwA3oECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=Consumptariat&f=false

Netocrat wikipedia article :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netocracy
 

Edited January 25, 2021 by DocWatts

[Preety_India]

@DocWatts just saw this. Thank you. 

[Preety_India]

@DocWatts would you say that netocrats are a part of the proletariat.. 

[TheSomeBody]

On 25.1.2021 at 3:31 PM, DocWatts said:

My view is that the class distinctions proposed in Marxist Theory aren't so much wrong as they are a Reductionist and somewhat outdated way of looking at Society.  Sure, divisions between people who own Capitol and people who sell their labor do exist, but some people on the far Left cling to 150 year old theory like nothing's changed over the course of the last century and a half.

Here's just one Concrete example of how Marx's Theory is outdated: it fails to make a clear distinction between service industry workers and creative professionals, who in a technical sense are both proletariat because they both sell their labor rather than having access to Capitol; but still live in two different worlds as far as how creatively fulfilled they are, and how much control they have over their lives. 

A more updated model, though still somewhat Reductionist, has been proposed, and looks something like:
- The Precarait (A general term for people in society who happen to find themselves suffering from precarious socio-economic conditions, and are excluded in some degree from making meaningful contributions to society. This would include both the working class as well as many middle class people whose livelihoods are being threatened by globalization and automation).
 - The Consumptariat (People who benefit from more stable socio-economic conditions, but are out of step with the larger culture, and are excluded from Contributing to society, only participating in it as Consumers.).
- The Neocrats (The movers an shakers of Society, who possess the cultural capitol and skills to meaningfully contribute to our globalized, digitized age).

doesnt really looks much different , they both work for someone else and not getting the fruits of thier labor .  it is more like some are having some advantages because the market giving them more of a fair share but this is it .i will agree that now working people have differnet interests because some payed pretty well and some dont but still the system needs to expand and it will expand on the richer workers too , you cant expend Infinitly and it is not like tech will keep developing forever (at least the for profits one). also as we get more advance the capitalist crisis is comming faster 

 

 

 

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, TheSomeBody said:

doesnt really looks much different , they both work for someone else and not getting the fruits of thier labor .  it is more like some are having some advantages because the market giving them more of a fair share but this is it .i will agree that now working people have differnet interests because some payed pretty well and some dont but still the system needs to expand and it will expand on the richer workers too , you cant expend Infinitly and it is not like tech will keep developing forever (at least the for profits one). also as we get more advance the capitalist crisis is comming faster 

Marxists that rigidly cling to 19th century economic theory, despite the massive changes that have taken place over the last 150 years, will then wonder why there isn't a shared class consciousness between someone making minimum wage working at Wal-Mart and living off from food stamps, and someone making $65,000 a year as a software engineer at Microsoft.

On a qualitative level there's a world of difference between these two examples, and to reduce everything down to an owner and a worker class is to miss huge and important distinctions in the lived experiences of people.

I swear, people who cling rigidly to Marxist economic theory are the mirror reflection of Libertarian Free Market evangelists.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by DocWatts

[TheSomeBody]

On 30.1.2021 at 4:20 PM, DocWatts said:

Marxists that rigidly cling to 19th century economic theory, despite the massive changes that have taken place over the last 150 years, will then wonder why there isn't a shared class consciousness between someone making minimum wage working at Wal-Mart and living off from food stamps, and someone making $65,000 a year as a software engineer at Microsoft.

On a qualitative level there's a world of difference between these two examples, and to reduce everything down to an owner and a worker class is to miss huge and important distinctions in the lived experiences of people.

I swear, people who cling rigidly to Marxist economic theory are the mirror reflection of Libertarian Free Market evangelists.

 

they just in different sub category , it is known all different sub categories . their instrest is still getting their full payment for thier work, not fearing getting fired and getting to the street  .like petite bourgeois, big bourgeois, today factory and digital bourgeois, they still have the same incentive just act differently at some degree.
this is exactly like feodalism just with some more complex

at the french revolution the knights was for the common people even though they where different lol, they knew they dont get the full paiment for their work

Edited February 1, 2021 by TheSomeBody

[ArchangelG]

On 2021-01-29 at 10:24 AM, Preety_India said:

@DocWatts would you say that netocrats are a part of the proletariat.. 

Consumtariat=Consumerism+Proletariat

 

The Netocrats

*Informationalists - Collects and processes data

*Protopians

https://medium.com/predict/are-you-protopian-utopian-or-dystopian-86fb4c22ece4

*Sensocrats