Enlightenment Vs God (absolute Infinity)?

[SelfPeace]

I stumbled upon non-duality about 2 years ago but it wasn't until seeing Leo's videos on enlightenment did it really become clear to me. Since finding his stuff, I've been meditating/doing self-enquiry for the past couple months and have read many of the books on consciousness/enlightenment he's recommended. More and more daily I'm beginning to live through presence/awareness and less as my ego. I did a meditation retreat and since then I've really begun to incorporate this into my life and am really not as bothered by much anymore. I really do feel for example, when I go for a walk and hear the perception of a bird chirping, knowing that as myself and there is a peace that comes with that. 

After reading many of the books on enlightenment it really does seem like there is no more work to be done, except to continually catch myself in identification and continue to live as awareness. However, I would not consider myself enlightened however even though many of enlightened teacher's don't seem to add much more past this point. This makes me wonder, why doesn't Leo consider himself enlightened, if many of these teachers do?

This brings me to my question of Absolute Infinity. I've never really had a traditional "no-self" experience that many on these forums talk about, they seem incredibly more profound (or scary apparently) than anything I've experienced. What is the point of even having these experience (even psychedelic induced ones) if enlightenment is to abide in non-dual awareness. Would it not make more sense to just continually come back to realize yourself as presence than to have these experiences. I've taken psychedelics (light doses of mushrooms)  and those are profound experiences but I don't see how it would help more than meditation for example. 

The concept of Absolute infinity sounds really cool and sounds similar to Nirvana or being "union with god", but I don't see how these experiences can help you remain in enlightenment, the way teachers like Fred Davis for example describe it. I'm open for anything but I'd really like to clear up what the goal is here before I snort 5-Meo or anything haha. Leo what are you looking for in the drugs that you don't already believe you already are? Practitioners of meditation however (e.g. vipassana) seem to think enlightenment will take years, if not lifetimes to obtain, so what is deal here? 

[kurt]

Cool post!

I'm only going to make a couple of points 'cos the wife is nagging me to get off the computer, I may return to this later tho'.

It's correct that through Buddhism / Vipassana it may take you a while to reach what they consider enlightenment, because it's mostly karmic and action based.  They believe the mind and the person is the problem, so they seek to rid you of the mind to get established in what they believe to be reality.  All paths don't make the same assumptions.  It's entirely possible to establish yourself as non-dual awareness (which really just means you still experience life as a duality but your belief in duality has gone) within as little as two years using a more "direct-path" as long as you have the qualities of mind to do it.

Which brings me to your next point, no, there is no way to establish your experience in non dual awareness, because experience only gives your mind cause to break the belief in duality.  Thats all the experiences can do.  Education is the main factor, and making sure the mind is still enough to be able to inquire on a moment to moment basis.

The dope is not needed, but im sure it can help with dropping the illusion of time/space that the mind projects.

Cheers! 

[WelcometoReality]

@WorldPeace I can't really say anything about drug induced experiences as I don't have any experience of it. But after the initial enlightenment experience there is a surrender that happens. The surrender of the me. It gets smaller and smaller and smaller... and maybe the drug induced ones does the same.

[aurum]

It's true that Enlightenment experiences do not make you enlightened because true enlightenment is not an experience. It's more like a continual state of being in the world.

The point of these experiences I see is that they have the potential to inspire you and alter the ego in very positive ways. You won't be enlightened, but you'll have glimpsed the true nature of reality, which is pretty cool too

Also, from what Leo has said, it's possible that enough of these experiences can eventually lead to a full, permanent surrender of the ego. I have no idea if that's true, but it certainly seems plausible.

[Leo Gura]

A distinction needs to be made between mystical experiences and insight. A mystical experiences comes and goes. But from it may come insight. The insight is more or less permanent.

It's possible to have:

• Mystical experience with no insight
• Insight with no mystical experience
• Both
• Neither

A mystical experience, even with little permanent insight, is still a HUGELY valuable thing for people on this path. Plus they're cool as hell. Would you pass up a free cosmic orgasm?

[SelfPeace]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A distinction needs to be made between mystical experiences and insight. A mystical experiences comes and goes. But from it may come insight. The insight is more or less permanent.

It's possible to have:

• Mystical experience with no insight
• Insight with no mystical experience
• Both
• Neither

A mystical experience, even with little permanent insight, is still a HUGELY valuable thing for people on this path. Plus they're cool as hell. Would you pass up a free cosmic orgasm?

@Leo Gura Hell no, that's the shit I live for! I guess I came here bitching because I've been getting lots of the insight and not much of the mystical experience, but I guess thats the little me talking, since it's about insight at the end of the day . But thanks for clearing that up, makes a lot more sense. 

I actually wanted to dabble with magic mushrooms again but I was waiting to read more up on the subject of using them to have these experiences. I've watched your video and have been a fan of Terrence Mckenna for a while so I'm slightly familiar but I wanted to go more in depth. I've been waiting for you to update the book list, but would you (or anyone else for that matter) mind recommending me a good book on the subject?

@aurum @WelcometoReality @kurt thanks for the replies! Your perspectives have cleared things up for me as well!

 

[AlwaysBeNice]

Fun fact, Terrence actually believed doing magic mushrooms a lot, like a few times a week, would get you to sagehood.

Said in this fascinating video by the way, where he talks about communicating with the mushroom intelligence:

See this video also for context on why he beliefs the mushroom is a galatic being: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlMRiVGfONUBut I've also heard him not recommend it as he found himself becoming too preachy, literally standing on the soap box, preaching to the masses hehe. Luckily we have youtube for that now : p

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by AlwaysBeNice

[SelfPeace]

@AlwaysBeNice super cool vids! I sometimes put terrence talks on in the background while I work, I can literally listen for hours. He may fell short of sagehood but he'll always be apart of history's underrated geniuses. Can anybody who's tried 5-meo-dmt see if you can ask the mushroom to turn into it for you? 

[AlwaysBeNice]

That would be interesting indeed ^ ^

In fact, I will try probably in a few weeks though I am not going all too high with the dose, but I'll let you know. 

[TheLawisOne]

Infinity is an interesting concept to ponder - even though just placing a label on it distorts its true nature.

Infinity is unity. There cannot be anything else other than infinity. 

There is only one of us here.

[Dodo]

Sorry I was pondering this question deeply and I wanted to ask it without opening a new thread... Do enlightened beings fap/ have sex? Anyone enlightened that can enlighten me? I mean even if you don't have desire for it, it's not bad, right, so it can be done? I can't stop my sexual urges and they don't go away. MUch harder than thoughts. Help me if its something bad!

[TheLawisOne]

8 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Sorry I was pondering this question deeply and I wanted to ask it without opening a new thread... Do enlightened beings fap/ have sex? Anyone enlightened that can enlighten me? I mean even if you don't have desire for it, it's not bad, right, so it can be done? I can't stop my sexual urges and they don't go away. MUch harder than thoughts. Help me if its something bad!

To overcome/ignore/reject/bury desires can have unwanted consequences. Overcoming a desire causes an imbalance. Instead, you should experience (in imagination or in the external world) the desire, understand it, accept it, and thus be in balance. By ignoring or rejecting the desire it remains and never actually is relieved or balanced. 

Sexual energy is very important arising from the lower or more primal energies - you could say it's a part of your "roots". Sex/sexual energy transfers can be used for positive spiritual work, for the opposite, or for nothing significant at all. 

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, TheLawisOne said:

To overcome/ignore/reject/bury desires can have unwanted consequences. Overcoming a desire causes an imbalance. Instead, you should experience (in imagination or in the external world) the desire, understand it, accept it, and thus be in balance. By ignoring or rejecting the desire it remains and never actually is relieved or balanced. 

Sexual energy is very important arising from the lower or more primal energies - you could say it's a part of your "roots". Sex/sexual energy transfers can be used for positive spiritual work, for the opposite, or for nothing significant at all. 

So would you say withholding from release will allow me to use this energy within me? I imagine something like a fire and if I keep it in, it will start moving up through my breathing activating other stuff instead of going out the wrong end. Anyone have a good idea on what is a good way to use sexuality for spiritual work? Like how do I actually transfer lol

[kurt]

19 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

So would you say withholding from release will allow me to use this energy within me? I imagine something like a fire and if I keep it in, it will start moving up through my breathing activating other stuff instead of going out the wrong end. Anyone have a good idea on what is a good way to use sexuality for spiritual work? Like how do I actually transfer lol

Youre identified with the desires, which means your A) personalizing them and B) making them wrong.  I'm assuming they are getting out of hand and this is why you're asking the question?  I'm not sure what happened, but maybe some 'spiritual' literature misinformed you about the nature of desire.  Desire is caused by ignorance (not knowing who you are), so desire and thinking is not the problem, ignorance is the problem.  Just accept that you are a (20 something?) male and it's natural.  These desires don't belong to you, so why you are personalizing them I don't really know.  They were given to you for a purpose.  Being spiritual or enlightened is not about quelling desire, it's about going out and working out these desires in life and acting on them.  When you are ready you will eventually see the zero sum nature of them (that the objects you are desiring don't actually contain lasting satisfaction) and with that realization will come a readiness to convert your desire to experience more into a desire to understand yourself.  However, you can't escape it,you have been programmed to do a job here and you wont be ready for self knowledge until you have "been there, bought the t-shirt".  There is no spiritual bypass.

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, kurt said:

Youre identified with the desires, which means your A) personalizing them and B) making them wrong.  I'm assuming they are getting out of hand and this is why you're asking the question?  I'm not sure what happened, but maybe some 'spiritual' literature misinformed you about the nature of desire.  Desire is caused by ignorance (not knowing who you are), so desire and thinking is not the problem, ignorance is the problem.  Just accept that you are a (20 something?) male and it's natural.  These desires don't belong to you, so why you are personalizing them I don't really know.  They were given to you for a purpose.  Being spiritual or enlightened is not about quelling desire, it's about going out and working out these desires in life and acting on them.  When you are ready you will eventually see the zero sum nature of them (that the objects you are desiring don't actually contain lasting satisfaction) and with that realization will come a readiness to convert your desire to experience more into a desire to understand yourself.  However, you can't escape it,you have been programmed to do a job here and you wont be ready for self knowledge until you have "been there, bought the t-shirt".  There is no spiritual bypass.

So salvation is in time and conditional?

[kurt]

6 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

So salvation is in time and conditional?

Not for the qualified.  No. To qualify you need to work out your desires, otherwise its not going to work.  Why do you think theres so many people here looking for "enlightenment experiences" through drugs?  Nice guys, mature guys, but still non the wiser about enlightenment.  Because people still think enlightenment is some kind of happening,even if we know on the surface it isnt,  Its all subconscious drives, and those need to come to the surface and be understood properly.  If your body is driving you toward certain things then its clear the subconscious is still not done with you.  

Ramana was super qualified, but people like that are rare.

Edited October 3, 2016 by kurt

[TheLawisOne]

17 hours ago, Dodoster said:

So would you say withholding from release will allow me to use this energy within me? I imagine something like a fire and if I keep it in, it will start moving up through my breathing activating other stuff instead of going out the wrong end. Anyone have a good idea on what is a good way to use sexuality for spiritual work? Like how do I actually transfer lol

There is no right or wrong end. Generalizations are misinformed because each person/entity is unique and each person will have a unique such point for "enlightenment".

Balance is the key. If the body wishes to release, then release. This is the balanced way. 

 

[Prabhaker]

18 hours ago, Dodoster said:

So would you say withholding from release will allow me to use this energy within me? I imagine something like a fire and if I keep it in, it will start moving up through my breathing activating other stuff instead of going out the wrong end. Anyone have a good idea on what is a good way to use sexuality for spiritual work? Like how do I actually transfer lol

celibacy is not a discipline, it is a consequence. You put your total energy so you don’t have any energy... and it happens in ordinary life also. You can see a great painter: he forgets women completely. When he is painting there is no sex in his mind,because the whole energy is moving. You don’t have any extra energy. A great poet, a great singer, a dancer who is moving totally in his commitment, automatically becomes celibate. He has no discipline for it. Sex is superfluous energy; sex is a safety valve. When you have too much in you and you cannot do anything with it, the nature has made a safety valve; you can throw it out. You can release it, otherwise you will go mad or burst – explode. And if you try to suppress it, then too you will go mad, because suppressing it won’t help. It needs a transformation, and that transformation comes from total commitment. A warrior, if he is really a warrior – an impeccable warrior, will be beyond sex. His whole energy is moving.

[SelfPeace]

6 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

celibacy is not a discipline, it is a consequence. You put your total energy so you don’t have any energy... and it happens in ordinary life also. You can see a great painter: he forgets women completely. When he is painting there is no sex in his mind,because the whole energy is moving. You don’t have any extra energy. A great poet, a great singer, a dancer who is moving totally in his commitment, automatically becomes celibate. He has no discipline for it. Sex is superfluous energy; sex is a safety valve. When you have too much in you and you cannot do anything with it, the nature has made a safety valve; you can throw it out. You can release it, otherwise you will go mad or burst – explode. And if you try to suppress it, then too you will go mad, because suppressing it won’t help. It needs a transformation, and that transformation comes from total commitment. A warrior, if he is really a warrior – an impeccable warrior, will be beyond sex. His whole energy is moving.

Well put. @Dodoster Napoleon Hill has a chapter in Think & Grow rich on sexual transmutation. It's about transforming that energy, not suppressing. As you grow in awareness the problem will auto-correct and you won't want to release it in a 10 min spectacle . Disciplining this usually back fires from my own experience.

 

[Neo]

On ‎02‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 8:49 PM, aurum said:

The point of these experiences I see is that they have the potential to inspire you and alter the ego in very positive ways. You won't be enlightened, but you'll have glimpsed the true nature of reality, which is pretty cool too

What about other experiences? I have one I wouldn't have naturally thought of as an Enlightenment experience, but I had it again just a few minutes ago. You are busy doing something and then you freeze and it hits you like I tonne of bricks, "OMG I actually exist", and it's as if the true self cuts right through into your reality. For many years, I thought this was "me" saying I actually exist, but I realise now, "I" doesn't actually exist at all, so it must be something else saying, "wow - I exist!"

Edited October 4, 2016 by Neo