Is there only one Awakening?

[Flyboy]

Context: I've watched almost all of Leo's videos, read the Ralston Trilogy, Ruper Spira, and others, and am now exploring Core Teachings of the Buddha, have been doing Kriya for 8 months, and have experience with a number of psychedelics and DMT, though not 5-MeO.  I cannot use psychedelics currently because of an injury to my brain from a bad MAOI sourced online.

After reading / watching a number of Daniel Ingram videos, I'm confused about what "Enlightenment" actually is.  He describes it as a fundamental perceptual change of reality that is achieved in distinct stages (the 4 paths) and is ultimately permanent.  This seems VERY different from "consciousness recognizing itself", as described by Rupert Spira, or from the inexplicable knowledge of absolute Truth described by Ralston. 

The Ingram description indicates that these other descriptions might only be "sub-enlightenment" and still "of mind", even 5-MeO breakthroughs (he describes these as 6th/7th Jhana type experiences, and claims to have experiences both 5-MeO and the meditative experience).

This has led me to really question whether the "ultimate truth of reality" really IS knowable (by which I mean directly experienceable, not mental knowledge), as it seems there is very significant disagreement on what enlightenment constitutes and the state of understanding that can be attained.  Despite claiming Arahant (4th path) attainment, Daniel Ingram said he remains ontologically "agnostic", which is in stark contrast to the assuredness of people like Leo and Ralston who claim certainty of Absolute Truth.

Guess I'm feeling a little lost after initially hoping the direction of the path was clearer.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Flyboy
clarity

[Moksha]

Ultimate reality is not knowable. It can only be directly experienced. Any beliefs, concepts, or models attached to it are products of the mind.

Maybe what you are describing are the stages of direct experience. It may happen briefly, but then the person falls back asleep. It may happen sustainably, but realization ebbs and flows still, within that state. Even when a person's eyes are permanently opened, attachments must still be dissolved. It is only when awareness and expression are perfectly unified that ultimate enlightenment is attained.

All of that said, remember my first paragraph 

[Flyboy]

Moksha, I hear what you're saying, and I understand ultimate reality is beyond concept and even experience.  Yet, somehow "infinite consciousness" seems to be within the realm of at least peak states.

I guess my disillusionment comes from the idea that even these "seemingly infinite" states are deconstructable, and that after doing so you are left with just the statement "Reality is neither ___ nor NOT ___" for any blank.

This feels unsatisfying, as it applies even to God, the godhead, Nothingness, and consciousness itself.  Kind of leaves me with the same big QUESTION MARK that I started this journey with.

Also, how does 4th path enlightenment relate to realizations of various facets of enlightenment through contemplation / self-inquiry?

[Moksha]

@Flyboy How can direct experience be deconstructed? As the Watcher, where is the question mark? Direct experience is nonconceptual, and as such, it is undeniable.

Enlightenment means nothing more than to be filled with light. The final path is not just the realization of who you are, but the actualization of that truth. When you are entirely free from attachments, you will be fully enlightened, and only then, there will be no more "you" to be bound to the relative world.

[peanutspathtotruth]

20 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

I guess my disillusionment comes from the idea that even these "seemingly infinite" states are deconstructable, and that after doing so you are left with just the statement "Reality is neither ___ nor NOT ___" for any blank.

You say your disillusionment comes from the IDEA, but what about your experience? Not even the most mundane experience can be deconstructed without referring to thoughts, which always come AFTER the experience, not to speak of direct consciousness of infinity or whatever you want to call it.

Your practice sounds very solid, my feeling tells me you're trying to grock it all with your mind and are in your head most of the time. I recognize myself in that, so my two cents would be: maybe try forgetting all you read so far and focusing more on actually feeling your experience, most importantly feel into your body. Maybe you already do that, but if not, that might help guiding you. 

To me when I'm too stuck in my head and I "fall" into the heart and belly area, I understand that I was asking sincerely but looking from a certain perspective that would never satisfy the question.

Edited January 21, 2021 by peanutspathtotruth

[Flyboy]

@Moksha Frank Yang has been interesting to watch and try to understand. His descriptions of enlightenment (though chaotic in his video style) are very PhD level--at the highest levels he talks about even deconstructing Being vs Non-Being, God vs No-God.  This is dizzying and I don't claim to understand how deconstruction works at this level.

The claim, however, is that even direct experience, while our best tool, can still be very partial (such as the 5-MeO state, supposedly).  Daniel Ingram also sort of seems to imply that all states are sensate experiences of some kind, while I had previously understood "direct experience" to be something totally outside of sensate experience.

[Moksha]

@Flyboy I hear you, and in a sense Frank Yang is right. Any duality, even Being vs. Non-Being, or God vs. No-God, or Reality vs. Illusion is inherently relative, and thus cannot reflect ultimate reality. Talking in such terms can be interesting, but only for the mind. Direct realization is beyond the mind.

Your instinct about direct experience is right on. It is beyond the senses. When you directly realize who You are, it is undeniable, and it is beyond deconstruction. Dualities dissolve, and you realize, and resonate as, the connectedness and essence of everything.

It is sufficient to itself. There is no need for any other "realization", and indeed there is no possibility of any other "realization", at least not that can be relied upon.

I hope that helps, bro. You are asking good questions. Just don't depend on your mind for answers 

[Leo Gura]

You can have an infinite number of awakenings.

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You can have an infinite number of awakenings.

While this makes sense, and has been my running assumption since the beginning, it just seems like some people disagree.  It's curious that some people (like Frank Yang / Daniel Ingram) will claim that the 4th path attainment is "complete/total."  Can you explain why they are right or wrong in this regard?  

[RedLine]

I just to ask myself the same question.

I don´t really know if it just differente different ways of describe the same thing or the Mahasi gang is actually beyond -have deconstructed- Absolute/Consciusness

 

we discuss the same thing here, I write there a description of Ken Wilber´s stages of enlightement, maybe it can help you a little bit: 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by RedLine

[James123]

@Flyboy no mind, no more awakening. If you can name and label the experience, awakening never ends, because still stuck in the dream. 

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

4th path attainment is "complete/total."

4th path my ass.

There are infinite paths, infinite states.

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Leo, there are different veins of awakening right? For example I had awakening on 5meo about how screwed up my body was, and others awakenings about how I and others are afraid of moving their bodies in potentially beneficially ways which lead me to Qigong. Would those be awakenings or just realizations and insights?

Some awakenings I have seem practical, secular, psychological etc, while others are of a more cosmic and mystical nature.

I will contemplate and make a more robust definition of awakening as I move forward. I still don't have 100% self trust, as you and I know from my insights and awakenings.

I have also had awakenings of being a strange-loop, and bits of infinity, and unconditional love. Being others.. etc...

Edited January 22, 2021 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

I would distinguish insights from awakenings. Insights are smaller things, awakenings are more radical.

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Okay, so for example your AL-LAD video. The Awakening to the contextual natures of things, would that be an insight or an awakening? or did the awakening lead to an insight?

So the awakening is a change in consciousness as the insight is the gems you get from that, but they aren't clearly distinct either.

Insight - My body is out of order

Awakening - Becoming infinite/ entering God consciousness 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Flyboy Not knowing seems to be important.

Infinity is tricky, its like... Imagine living 7 lifes... boooooring too long. Total awakening is ungraspable perhaps out of God's self love idk. I don't fully believe anyone has 'fully' awakened or become God. There are many awakenings. I still don't have enough self trust to trust myself or my understanding of others and the nature of reality. 

I am accepting I don't understand it despite lots of trips. It is the ungraspable.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Thought Art

[James123]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

4th path my ass.

 You are deeply suffering. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by James123

[Thought Art]

@James123 Can you tell that from pixels on a screen? Leo does have a personality...  

[Nahm]

@Flyboy

You are, and you are, aware. Only awareness, is aware. (This is self evident, but check if need be).

(Confirm now in direct experience. Notice, you can not honestly say anything else, or anyone else, is aware. That would be a thought, not direct experience.)

 

Awareness is directly aware of: thought, perception, and sensation (aka “experience”, or, that which awareness is experiencing).

(Confirm now, by looking for anything other than: thought, perception, and sensation. If you do find something else, notice the direct experience is actually of a thought). 

 

Awareness is only aware of awareness. Awareness is appearing as: “thoughts”, “perception”, “sensation”. 

Why doesn’t awareness readily know itself is appearing as thought, perception, and sensation?  

Awareness is infinite. There isn’t “something else”, for awareness to know...or to compare to itself, by which to derive a distinction, about itself.

Thus awareness intrinsically = “not knowing”. There isn’t any thing for awareness to know, because awareness is infinite / not “a thing”. 

 

Awareness ‘forgets’ that it is infinite, by appearing as: thought, perception, and sensation.

Awareness already didn’t know anything, because there is no “second thing”, to know. 

Veiling itself of it’s knowing of it’s own infinitude, with it’s own appearance, awareness believes “thoughts”, and creates an idea of itself. 

Awareness experiences the discord (suffering) of this experience of believing it’s own idea, about itself. It intuitively feels “off” because it is itself, but doesn’t know it’s true infinitude. 

Awareness relinquishes attachment to thoughts, namely, about itself. (Itself = not only awareness, but also awareness which is appearing as: thoughts, perception, sensation)

Awareness is again knowing it’s own infinitude (aka “enlightenment”).

Awareness is again knowing that it is infinite, and appearing as... “thoughts”, “perception”, “sensation”.  Thus awareness is “recognizing itself”, which could be said to be a “fundamental change” of how awareness is experiencing, itself. Awareness’s own infinitude is “knowable” by awareness, yet, there is nothing to know. Awareness is not a “thing”, awareness believes in “things”, via thought, perception, and sensation, which awareness is appearing as. The “ultimate truth of reality” is known in awareness knowing it’s own infinitude, though at the same time, nothing is actually known because there isn’t anything other than awareness, to know. Realizing it’s own infinitude, awareness is not atheist, as awareness knows itself to be the infinitude. As infinity is knowing that it is infinity, infinity is knowing there is nothing to know, and could rightfully be said to be “ontologically agnostic".

 

This post has equal chances of being clarifying, as it does unclear or confusing. There is no way for me to know. Just sharing because you asked, and I love the experience of sharing. 

[peanutspathtotruth]

@Nahm Great post, I find it quite clarifying ??

This pendulum movement feels like awareness forgetting it's everything and frantically starting to panic, looking for itself, then forgetting even what it's looking for. After the "return", it truly feels like one was just dozing off, like a gentle amnesia. "Oh right, it's everywhere... OH right, it's all me anyway. How could I forget?"