Green Meme: All perspectives are equally valid?

[tuckerwphotography]

It's often said about Stage Green that "all perspectives of the world are equally valid."

My experience with Green (both individually having gone through it as well as my observations of the collective conversations) is that Green actually has very adamant opinions and perspectives about pretty much any topic, and they will actively voice their dissent if others do not conform to the Green mindset. For example:

1. Being vegan is more valid than factory farms.

2. Solar panels are more valid than coal.

3. Bernie Sanders' policy positions are more valid than Joe Biden's. 

4. Crystals are more "sacred" than Catholicism. 

So what exactly does Wilbur, Graves and others mean when they speak against the "postmodern myth" that all perspectives are flattened and seen as equally valid? Are there specific examples that could help illuminate this?

Thanks!

[DocWatts]

Phrasing it that way is a bit of a strawman argument... A better way of putting it is that Green postmodernism is suspicious of Grand Narratives, with the contradiction being that the postmodern perspective fails to recognize that it itself is also a Grand Narrative. 

It also says that all knowledge and social values are contextual and socially constructed, while failing to see how that's also true of its own perspective. It's suspicious of hierarchies, while refusing to see how the postmodern paradigm sees itself as superior to all preceding paradigms.

Edited January 20, 2021 by DocWatts

[tuckerwphotography]

@DocWatts That quote is directly from Wilbur, I believe. But thanks, your comments make sense and are well summarized! 

[tuckerwphotography]

16 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

It depends on from where you view this.

lol

[TrustTheProcess]

26 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

It's often said about Stage Green that "all perspectives of the world are equally valid."

When green says this, they don't mean it in terms of ideology lol. they mostly mean that in terms of social identity. 

26 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

My experience with Green (both individually having gone through it as well as my observations of the collective conversations) is that Green actually has very adamant opinions and perspectives about pretty much any topic, and they will actively voice their dissent if others do not conform to the Green mindset. For example:

Yes. while stage green will not be as judgemental along the lines of race, social status, religion, etc, they will of course be judgemental of blue and orange. Green is still tier 1. to fully understand blue and orange would mean to be at yellow. 

9 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Phrasing it that way is a bit of a strawman argument... A better way of putting it is that Green postmodernism is suspicious of Grand Narratives, with the contradiction being that the postmodern perspective fails to recognize that it itself is also a Grand Narrative. 

It also says that all knowledge and social values are contextual and socially constructed, while failing to see how that's also true of its own perspective. It's suspicious of hierarchies, while refusing to see how the postmodern paradigm sees itself as superior to all preceding paradigms.

lol, post modernism is a strange loop. Funny how so many greenies get triggered by modernist narratives and can be quick to call other ideologies bullshit considering that if you actually deeply apply post modernism, the ideology itself is as untenable as any other ideology... even modernist ones... it literally digests itself. 

26 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

So what exactly does Wilbur, Graves and others mean when they speak against the "postmodern myth" that all perspectives are flattened and seen as equally valid? Are there specific examples that could help illuminate this?

 

I think about this in terms of ideology... Green does not recognize that depending on context, stage blue nationalistic government can be healthier than social democracy or socialism-- for example, like in Iraq. Green does not see the spiral to its fullest. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by louhad

[tuckerwphotography]

5 minutes ago, louhad said:

When green says this, they don't mean it in terms of ideology lol. they mostly mean that in terms of social identity. 

I think about this in terms of ideology... Green does not recognize that depending on context, stage blue nationalistic government can be healthier than social democracy or socialism-- for example, like in Iraq. Green does not see the spiral to its fullest. 

Got it. Yeah, that seems like a major challenge playing out right now in politics and culture. 

[DocWatts]

23 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@DocWatts That quote is directly from Wilbur, I believe. But thanks, your comments make sense and are well summarized! 

Heh, probably just means I internalized Ken Wilber's ideas more than I was aware of, as this wasn't intentional on my part 

I do think that Ken Wilber does strawman Green to some extent, but his basic critique of postmodernism is valid

[tuckerwphotography]

@DocWatts Just to clarify, I meant the "all perspectives of the world are equally valid" quote not something you wrote. 

Agree that Wilbur seems to rail against Green in a way that feels borderline excessive at times, but I trust he plays an important role in the process of moving folks up the spiral.

[Forestluv]

It depends on how you define the term “valid”.

[Adam M]

Good observation! Wilber and even Leo talk about this phenomenon a lot. Green is infatuated with the "ideal" of equality but has trouble embodying true unconditional love. So, Green will accept my opinion as equal and valid as long as I'm not talking about murdering puppies and raping the environment. 

"All opinions are valid ------> except those opinions who do not agree with the previous statement."

Only in Yellow can we actually begin to dive into the mind of a criminal or a rapist and understand that they aren't just "low-consciousness people that need more hugs and magic mushrooms." Yellow can see the deep psychological dynamics and interconnections that allow for people to have violent, manipulative, greedy, and exploitative tendencies. Yellow understands that all spiral stages are a survival response that best suits one's survival conditions.  Therefore, while Green talks about unconditional love, it still isn't conscious enough to embody their ideal. Only Turquoise can do this effectively which requires moving through Yellow.

Edit: Also, Green has this really obnoxious tendency to over-flatten and give too much equality to different ideas. Green sees all (compassionate) opinions as valid but still hasn't developed the 2nd-tier ability to discern which opinions are more effective for optimizing complex systems on individual and collective levels (and are more conscious and loving).

Edited January 20, 2021 by Adam M

[Adam M]

@neutralempty One must move through YELLOW to get to TURQUOISE. There is no TURQUOISE without YELLOW in the same way that there are no humans without organs, there are no organs without tissues, there are no tissues without cells, no cells without molecules, no molecules without atoms...

What it means to be TURQUOISE is to integrate YELLOW. Recently, I've been seeing more and more how YELLOW is a necessary predecessor to TURQUOISE. YELLOW is about learning the maps really well and TURQUOISE is like actually going out there and studying the terrain. (just a loose simile).

[tuckerwphotography]

25 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

I don't think green is talking about unconditional love bro.

My observation of Green is that there's two camps: political and spiritual. The political Greens are all about activism, justice, equality, revolutionizing the system, etc. Spiritual Greens are more about "unconditional love" and New Age ideals, often bypassing politics as "low-consciousness" and instead (EDIT: in more extreme cases) opting for "conspirituality" conspiracy theories to make sense of the world. The two camps obviously have a lot of overlap but also feel like distinctly different paths through Green. Just my anecdotal observations...

Edited January 20, 2021 by tuckerwphotography

[Gesundheit]

This issue is unclear in Spiral Dynamics. The 9 Stages Of Ego Development addresses it better as a conflict between values and cognitive development that happens at the pluralist/individualist level.

Here, a screenshot from Cook-Greuter's paper talking exactly about this particular issue:

Y'all should really study something beyond Spiral Dynamics, or else you're gonna be left behind.

[tuckerwphotography]

@neutralempty Yeah I edited to say that it's only in some cases, but sadly I see the trend growing. This vaccine issue is taking an existing trend and blowing it up into a full blown culture war.  

12 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

Hmn, I dunno, could just be a green that came there from orange via psychedelics with a disfunctional blue shadow.

 

[tuckerwphotography]

@Gesundheit @neutralempty "We have found in our data that Individualists may or may not have a communal bend. Some turn towards their own meaning making and exploring their own minds and are less concerned with diversity issues." 

^ This is exactly what I was getting at with the two camps of Green (Political and Spiritual). Seems like there's two paths through the stage which overlap greatly but differ in how they approach the cultural/social aspects. 

[DocWatts]

39 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Y'all should really study something beyond Spiral Dynamics, or else you're gonna be left behind.

Agreed. Spiral Dynamics is a great starting point, but the model has limitations, and sloppy applications of it can be used to reinforce cultural stereotypes (assuming that everyone at Stage Green is a socialist, or a hippie, or that Stage Blue has to be a God fearing religious zealot, etc, etc).

Even when applied properly and with nuance, one of the main limitations of Spiral Dynamics is that it attempts to merge several dimensions of development down into one Stage or Meme. It doesn't make a clear enough distinction between the complexity of someone cognitive capabilities (a  person's mental 'hardware', if you will) and the cultural code (or 'software') that they operate from. Spiral Dynamics fails to incorporate how people can either out-complex, or be outcomplexed by, the SD-Stage they're centered at.

Consider a 16 year old girl brought up by hippie parents and roughly at SD-stage Green. And let's compare her to someone like Aristotle, a deep and complex thinker who happened to be at SD-Stage Blue. Which one is at a higher stage of Development? The hippie girl relates in a very shallow way to a more complex stage of Development, while Aristotle relates in a more deeper, more complex way to a much simpler and less nuanced SD-Stage. Which of the two is more developed according to Spiral Dynamics? The fact that it doesn't give a clear answer is a demonstration of some of its limitations.

Probably much too complex to cover in this thread, but works by people like Ken WIlber and Hanzi Freinacht combine Spiral Dynamics with other developmental models to arrive at a more nuanced and complete developmental system.

Edited January 20, 2021 by DocWatts

[Adam M]

56 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

This issue is unclear in Spiral Dynamics. The 9 Stages Of Ego Development addresses it better as a conflict between values and cognitive development that happens at the pluralist/individualist level.

Here, a screenshot from Cook-Greuter's paper talking exactly about this particular issue:

Y'all should really study something beyond Spiral Dynamics, or else you're gonna be left behind.

Great share! U da best <3

[Adam M]

19 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Even when applied properly and with nuance, one of the main limitations of Spiral Dynamics is that it attempts to merge several dimensions of development down into one Stage or Meme. It doesn't make a clear enough distinction between the complexity of someone cognitive capabilities (a  person's mental 'hardware', if you will) and the cultural code (or 'software') that they operate from. Spiral Dynamics fails to incorporate how people can either out-complex, or be outcomplexed by, the SD-Stage they're centered at.
 

Thanks Doc. You're totally right and that's why it's important to hold the model loosely. One of the scariest parts of teaching people spiral dynamics is seeing how they naturally use it to judge and pigeon hole other people.

[lmfao]

2 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

"all perspectives of the world are equally valid."

No human can think this. 

Entering the domain of consciousness work. Even if you were "enlightened" this quote wouldn't contain the truth. 

[Leo Gura]

The reality is that extremely few people understand post-modernism.

Most Green are not fully post-modern because that's a very academic stance.