Anti-racism sucks most of the time

[Consept]

I actually watched the film yesterday and i think the commentator gives a really bad take on it. I think she misses what the movie is fundamentally about and questions certain parts of the narrative as being racist. Quick example is that she says Tina Fays character is white, this is not true, that character is pre-existence and she even specifically says she can change her voice to any voice, when she goes to earth she could be black. One of the initial scripts had a scene at the end where she was an Indian girl. The main character sacrificing himself at the end is because hes become selfless, which is literally the whole point of the movie, hes too attached to his self, her whole take is that 22 (tina fay) is over shadowing and taking over Joes role, for me this is not the case at all and that perspective actually takes away from what the movies trying to say.

I also heard one of the directors is a Black guy who accidentally shot his best friend when he was a kid, the parents of his best friend chose not to press charges out of compassion, but obviously it messed the guy up and he made a vow to live for him and his best friend, which led him to be too focused on outcome and achievement and i think he had depression, only when he realised this he went in a more creative direction which led to making this film. The story is based on the insights of this director and you can see the theme is a big theme in his life. So in that way i think it was a very authentic film with a deep spiritual meaning, ill post a video i came across about the spiritual meaning below. I also think its amazing to have such themes in a kids film and these this type of content can actually lead to a rise in consciousness, probably more than a lot of other things. 

As to whether black people or any other ethnicity look or racism, of course theres a spectrum of people who dont care at all about it and people that look for it everywhere, what ive found is that its usually to do with how traumatised someone has been with racism. Ive got cousins in America (DC) who had a stable upbringing, lived in the suburbs, went to college etc and i dont think they really consider racism. My experience growing up in south london in the uk is somewhat different ive experienced it a lot more than them and am very aware of it, someone in South Africa growing up during apartheid has probably been heavily traumatised by it. So the fact is its there and its not necessarily fair to say to someone why are you complaining about it so much when youre not privy to their direct experience. It can also be the case that people who have not experienced it still complain a lot about it, i think regardless, its important to see the reality behind it and what are the facts, where can it be improved, what policies do we want changed. Otherwise you can get to the girl in the videos level where you are just looking for it and actually hurting genuine pieces of art that can provide value and show the black experience. There are more important issues for black people than films like this. 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Consept

[Shane Hanlon]

@Consept This felt right. Thank you for sharing

[Loving Radiance]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

I interpreted the scene as kind of racist.

It has a "white cop" hiding in some inner city graffiti, and he accidentally gets the wrong black guy and "kills him" - but brings the guy back to make fun of his food choices, minimize the trauma and then run off - probably due to the standard African american diet - I think of Trayvon Martin holding skittles or something like that, too...

I'll bet racism is invisible to a lot of white people, and also, humans are designed to make assessments like this in our environment.

I haven't seen the movie yet

I agree, there is a fine line between judging all black guys to look the same and confusing two similar looking guys.

I haven't experienced overt racism in my upbringing and in this scene I saw Terry mistaking Joe for another guy.

Switching the skin colour, confusing one white man with another one would feel to me to be just another mistake. That begs the question: am I blind to racism or am I just as blind as Forestluv (before his inter-racial relationship) in seeing the extent of racist behavior?

 

I agree with @Consept. By focusing on racist aspects of the movie the core message gets easily dismissed.

It is connected to "If you believe it is this way, then it's your reality" aka "You create your reality". This case is a good example how the mind can construct & maintain the identity's worldview as everything is used as a steppingstone to fit into the narrative.  I wonder how one could jailbrake that.  Questioning & recognition of the constructed lens is good. Awareness is good. Seeing oneself playing the character is good. However, I feel there is more. Even that can be repurposed to uphold a pov.

[Axiomatic]

must really suck the energy out of people to constantly make videos like that. But I can understand to an extent. 

[Loving Radiance]

@Axiomatic What in the video do you see as sucking energy out of the content creator?

Or in another way, how do you differentiate between content that sucks out energy and content that doesn't?

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

@Axiomatic What in the video do you see as sucking energy out of the content creator?

Or in another way, how do you differentiate between content that sucks out energy and content that doesn't?

For real, people can get energised by producing any content, from an overall perspective shes putting out content that reflects her world view which is the same as anyone putting out content. I am suspicious in that maybe she knows if she puts up a controversial take it will get more views, im sure shes aware of that, shes seems smart but her arguments dont really go together for me 

[Consept]

2 hours ago, Keyhole said:

I interpreted the scene as kind of racist.

It has a "white cop" hiding in some inner city graffiti, and he accidentally gets the wrong black guy and "kills him" - but brings the guy back to make fun of his food choices, minimize the trauma and then run off - probably due to the standard African american diet - I think of Trayvon Martin holding skittles or something like that, too...

I'll bet racism is invisible to a lot of white people, and also, humans are designed to make assessments like this in our environment.

I haven't seen the movie yet

Man, i really dont see this as racist, this is really reaching, i could even make the argument that calling it racist is in itself racist, as in if this was 2 white characters getting mistaken for each other no one would say its racist, but because its 2 black characters race comes into it. 

The being that kills him is not white or any race, hes a higher dimension being, (feel kinda crazy pointing these things out ), he gets the wrong guy but he assumes its him as they were coming out of the same place, and he didnt see him from the front until he turned him around. He could also know literally what he eats so he could be specifically talking to that characters diet, again saying that its racial is again reducing that character solely to race, which can be seen as racist in my opinion. Im black and watching it the thought didnt even cross my mind that the scene was racist, in the back of my head i was waiting for some kind of racist slip up, but i feel like they did justice to the characters and made them 3 dimensional. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Maybe living in Vermont makes it feel like racism isn't a pressing reality for me. Vermont is 92.8% white and seems to average around a green level of development, so racism is hard to come by. Not that it never occurs.

 

 

[Hulia]

Is the colour of your skin white? Then you have no idea what racism is. And no fucking right to judge about anti-racism.

[Shane Hanlon]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

 

LOL my mom thinks this is hilarious!

[Consept]

18 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

I can see it as racist, and then not as racist.  I think that it was an allusion to black people being called out on the street for committing a crime they didn't commit.  I wouldn't call it racist, from my end.  My thought process is image based.  I just thought of every racist thing that I could think of that someone could be offended by, based on what I have seen and heard.  I was trying to see how she would have wanted it contextualized based on what she might have found racist based on things that I have witnessed people do that has been racially insensitive in the media.

I know that he is a higher dimensional being, but it still looks to me like what I have mentioned.  That is a relevant problem today, it makes sense they would discuss it in some form, esp. in a movie featuring African Americans, and for a Disney movie, it is going to be subtle. 

I mean yes you(she) can have a perception of it as racist and i can see how she might have that perception, keep in mind her channel actively looks for racism in media. But just because you can put together a narrative of something appearing racist it doesnt mean that it necessarily is or that its even damaging in anyway. Remember this is a kids film, lets say a young child was watching Soul, you would have to do a lot of explaining as to why its racist the being thing mistook one guy for another. If there is genuinely racist things going on then explain that. Where i can see a general point is that, there isnt enough of a variety of black media in the mainstream, so when there is and its negative or mischaracterises black people it can have a dramatic effect on perception and perpetuate stereotypes, this is a real issue(which is why that siamise cat clip is racist). But with Soul, most of the characters are black, there is a variety within the film and as far as i can see there isnt any criminal behavior or negative stereo types. They obviously have to have personalities and i guess theres a danger of stereotyping there but the alternative would be just to have bland, characters that have no hint of their race, which if they did there would definitely be complaints, its also very stifling if any depiction of a black person draws criticism. 

I honestly think this film will stand the test of time and go down as a really good representation of black people and also be a film with a profound spiritual message 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Consept

[Loving Radiance]

11 minutes ago, Hulia said:

Is the colour of your skin white? Then you have no idea what racism is. And no fucking right to judge about anti-racism.

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

 

 

Does being born with certain genetic variation equal an inherent incapability of understanding racism regardless of experience?

Does being born with certain genetic variation equal having less rights than another person?

[Leo Gura]

It's very hard to appreciate the need for anti-racism when you live in an all-white affluent area with no race issues in the community.

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

 

 

Does being born with certain genetic variation equal an inherent incapability of understanding racism regardless of experience?

Does being born with certain genetic variation equal having less rights than another person?

Because racism is mainly a black experience. 

If you're born black, you will understand racism much better because you will feel it under your skin, you will be able to understand the struggles of your black parents, black grandparents and ancestors. You will feel the powerlessness that black people feel in a racist situation. 

If you are born white, you won't experience racism the way blacks do and so you won't understand what it feels like because there is nothing to relate to. 

[Axiomatic]

@Loving Radiance youre overthinking what I said

 

being angry and upset over disney movies and making and editing a video about must be tiring is all im saying. but i dont deal with systematic racism soo

[Loving Radiance]

@Preety_India I see you and I thank you for your perspective. In case it sparked your answer, no, my questions in that case didn't come from a place of not-knowing but rather a curiosity of Hulia's perspective on that.

 

12 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

youre overthinking what I said

being angry and upset over disney movies and making and editing a video about must be tiring is all im saying. but i dont deal with systematic racism soo

My comment was rather an invite to self-reflect. I understand that you don't want to have more thoughts on this than necessary. ?
 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Loving Radiance

[Jennjenn]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

6 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Maybe living in Vermont makes it feel like racism isn't a pressing reality for me. Vermont is 92.8% white and seems to average around a green level of development, so racism is hard to come by. Not that it never occurs.

 

 

lol... this reminds me of that study of an all-white-suburb in Long Island. 
The researches interviewed the white residents waiting for the train about racial issues and they all had and overall favorable opinion on immigration and not too much issues with it. 
Then, For two weeks they planted a well-dressed Mexican couple waiting for the train and after two weeks passed they re-interviewed the people waiting for the train. 
Now the results were different and residents now thought that immigration laws should be stronger specially on the southern border.... 

[Consept]

29 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

The point for me was mostly to see why she thought of it as racist so that I could understand why someone would find it to be so - and to try and "See" racism.  
I'm confused on why taking up that perspective is a problem, it isn't a fixed perspective, just one I happened to take up to try to understand her POV.  It just happened on it's own, idk what to say.  it just happened to hit me that I didn't understand racism and tried to hear her out on it.

I'll try to remember to give it a watch, but I'm not really much of a movie person tbh.

I pieced together what I could remember on old Disney movies and cartoons to see if maybe she was coming from that perspective, maybe if she had a linear understanding of racism in the media and how it wold evolve, you know?  And tried to understand how it would feel to work really hard, only to be dismissed as a woman because of race, ect, ect.

 

I'm not really coming at you personally I'm just debating the point. If you don't understand racism then of course, if you want to learn you should listen to the perspective of black people and their opinion on racism. I'm coming from a perspective of being very aware of racism and experiencing it first hand, so I'm more looking at the actual reality of the situation and whether the film should be considered racist. I understand her perspective as I personally know people that would find it racist as well, I just think it takes away from the real issues around race if there is a paranoia that everything is racist. There is of course enough real racism to focus on and I think it's important to differentiate what is and what isn't. 

But yeah you're doing the right thing and to be fair to her there is a long history of racist stuff in Disney films 

[Hatfort]

Sometimes antiracism goes too far, I can agree on that, but not most of the time.

The trend of being more concerned about antiracism than about racism feels wrong to me.

[Preety_India]

@Consept don't you think that nuanced racism in movies is also stemming from real racism, as in the directors holding racist tropes in their minds, although it is understandable that such racism is not as harmful as racism in the streets or schools. 

But still. It kinda reinforces stereotypes that already exist. Wouldn't that make people even more conscious of racist stereotypes on a subliminal level if they watched too many of such movies.