Anti-racism sucks most of the time

[Shane Hanlon]

This is what happens when we start to view our whole existence primarily through the lens of anti-racism. Everything becomes racist. Even when it is not. We project racism onto the world. Because what is a racist act and what is not, is not seen in the author's intent but rather in the most racist interpretation one could possibly imagine. And when we are constantly on the lookout for the slightest hint of something that could be interpreted as racist, we will find it. And unfortunately, we miss out on the essence of everything. In this case, we miss out on the beautiful spiritual message of this movie. That Love is not found in any doing but rather in a way of being.

 

 

[Dryas]

No, it is only bad sometimes. These kinds of examples are in the minority.

[Vrubel]

Being (relatively) high up the spiral does not make one immune to narrow-mindedness, projection, arrogance, crusading, or a lack of general knowledge. I live in a very stage green environment and for the most part, people are really accepting, nuanced and reasonable, nothing like the "SJW demonization narrative". But at the same time, it can be shocking how ignorant, narrow, and simplistic stage green can be, this makes it extra cringy when stage green takes up its self-righteous arrogant tone. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Vrubel

[Shane Hanlon]

29 minutes ago, Dryas said:

No, it is only bad sometimes. These kinds of examples are in the minority.

I don't think so. But I would be interested to hear you out.

Yes, this is an obvious example. and the blindspots of anti-racism live on a spectrum. But, the main point pervades throughout almost all of anti-racism to some degree. That by looking at the world primarily through the lens of race we are often missing the essence of what is going on and misconstruing situations through our single-pointed perspective.

[DocWatts]

The point to take away here is that it's possible to be an asshole about anti-racism, just like it's possible to be an asshole about veganism, or feminism, or any other number of laudable ideas that become counter productive when practiced in a very judgmental way.

[Shane Hanlon]

33 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Being (relatively) high up the spiral does not make one immune to narrow-mindedness, projection, arrogance, crusading, or a lack of general knowledge. I live in a very stage green environment and for the most part, people are really accepting, nuanced and reasonable, nothing like the "SJW demonization narrative". But at the same time, it can be shocking how ignorant, narrow, and simplistic stage green can be, this makes it extra cringy when stage green takes up its self-righteous arrogant tone. 

I also live in a stage green environment. Vermont, USA. We have Bernie! I love it here!

I agree with everything you said.

 

30 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

I could see her point, she gave me insights into how black people deal with racism that I did not know about.
I never grew up in a racist household, but I was not raised around black people and have not interacted with too many, so I am ignorant to their worldviews.

From what I took away, it seems like she just wants the characters to be more than two dimensional representations of her race.

Yes, I agree. 

I think the blindspots occur when she only sees the film from that perspective. She doesn't see how some of the things she interprets as racist could just be good storytelling tools. Like when Terry accidentally captures the wrong character and scares him. She interprets that as someone mistaking two black people for each other because they are both black. Of course, there are a million ways to interpret that scene. And 99.9% of them need no race in them. People start creating racist ghosts that aren't really there because that is what they are taught to do by anti-racism.

[Shane Hanlon]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

The point to take away here is that it's possible to be an asshole about anti-racism, just like it's possible to be an asshole about veganism, or feminism, or any other number of laudable ideas that become counter productive when practiced in a very judgmental way.

I definitely agree with that sentiment.

 

I am also attempting to point out a pervading quality of anti-racism that I see a lot. When we primarily look at the world through racism, we will be projecting it onto the world, even when it may not be there. And we will often miss the broader picture because we are single-pointed in our perspective of the world. This exists on a spectrum throughout anti-racism to different degrees.

 

I'm also not saying that all of anti-racism is bad.

[Forestluv]

43 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

That by looking at the world primarily through the lens of race we are often missing the essence of what is going on and misconstruing situations through our single-pointed perspective.

Being post-racist is a great ideal, yet it's not the real world. Try being black and see how far "Let's all be colorblind" gets you. Yes, there can be over-interpretation of racism - yet it's not fair to tell the people who carry the burden of racism that we should all be colorblind.

A few years ago, I was in my first inter-racial relationship with a black woman (I'm white). I think she over-interpreted a lot of occurrences as racist. However, I was shocked by how much racism we were exposed to. At the time, I acknowledged racism exists, yet I never had the experience of what it's actually like to have racism directed at me, and someone I loved, on a consistent basis. And I thought our culture was accepting of inter-racial relationships and most people would with cool with it. It's not the 1950s, right? . . I was wrong. We regularly got dirty looks, vitriol, disrespect and disparaging tones of voice. A couple times we were exposed to intense hate that we were physically threatened and had to escape. There were areas and events we wouldn't visit because we wouldn't be safe and didn't want to deal with shitty racism. I was not looking through a racist lens and interpreting everything as racist. I actually thought being in an inter-racial relationship would be exotic and cool. This was actual racism and it was ugly. It increased my stress and anger level at times. It sucked.

If someone told me "You are just interpreting everything as racist", I would roll my eyes and tell that person to get out of their head and go experience what racism is actually like - and then let's talk. 

[Shane Hanlon]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Being post-racist is a great ideal, yet it's not the real world. Try being black and see how far "Let's all be colorblind" gets you. Yes, there can be over-interpretation of racism - yet it's not fair to tell the people who carry the burden of racism that we should all be colorblind.

A few years ago, I was in my first inter-racial relationship with a black woman (I'm white). I think she over-interpreted a lot of occurrences as racist, however, I was shocked by how much racism we were exposed to. At the time, I acknowledged racism exists, yet I never had the experience of what it's actually like to have racism directed at me on a consistent basis. And I thought our culture was accepting of inter-racial relationships and most people with cool with it. I was wrong. We got dirty looks, vitriol, disparaging tones of voice, avoidance and ugly facial expressions. A couple times we were exposed to intense hate that we were physically threatened and had to escape. I was not looking through a racist lens and interpreting everything as racist. I actually thought being in an inter-racial relationship would be exotic and cool. This was actual racism and it was ugly. It increased my stress and anger level at times. It sucked.

If someone told me "You are just interpreting everything as racist", I would roll my eyes and tell that person to get out of their head and go experience what racism is actually like - and then let's talk. 

That's fair. I can see that.

Maybe living in Vermont makes it feel like racism isn't a pressing reality for me. Vermont is 92.8% white and seems to average around a green level of development, so racism is hard to come by. Not that it never occurs.

Would you say that the over projection of racism is an unfortunate byproduct of a more important movement of anti-racism that would push society forward and be more loving?

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Would you say that the over projection of racism is an unfortunate byproduct of a more important movement of anti-racism that would push society forward and be more loving?

I think that's fair. As I mentioned, she looked through a lens of racism. For example, we were waiting for a table in a restaurant and noticed we were skipped over by a white group that came after us. She interpreted that as racism. Yet I worked for years in restaurants and knew that during peak hours, if a table for 4 opens up, you try to give that to a group of 4, not a group of 2 - especially if a table for 2 is about to open up. I didn't get the sense the hostess intentionally skipped us due to race. My GF often over portrayed racism. There were times I think she added it in and it spoiled an interaction. 

However, there were times we were undeniably targeted due to our inter-racial status. I think it would be fair to speculate that after being exposed to racism on a consistent basis, one can begin to over project it. I probably started doing it. Part of it is to maintain one's wellbeing. I wouldn't say I was over-projecting, yet I did develop a new radar for it - in part to protect us. I definitely became more sympathetic and empathetic after getting some direct experience.  

I'm in Michigan. We have pockets of healthy green, yet there is still a lot of underlying racism here. My impression is that Vermont is one of the most progressive states in the country. If I had the opportunity, I would move to Vermont in a heartbeat. 

[Shane Hanlon]

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I think that's fair. As I mentioned, she looked through a lens of racism. For example, we were waiting for a table in a restaurant and noticed we were skipped over. She interpreted that as racism. Yet I worked for years in restaurants and knew that during peak hours, if a table for 4 opens up, you try to give that to a group of 4, not a group of 2 - especially if a table for 2 is about to open up. I didn't get the sense the hostess intentially skipped us due to race. Yet my GF often over portrayed racism. However, there were times we were undeniably targeted due to our inter-racial status. I think it would be fair to speculate that after being exposed to racism on a consistent basis, one can begin to over project it. I probably started doing it. I definitely became more sympathetic and empathetic after getting some direct experience.  

Thank you for your comments. They have been quite helpful for me <3

[Preety_India]

I can't really blame her if she has been exposed to racism all her life. 

It's difficult to predict what racism does to the psyche since I or you never had to face racism on the level that black folks have to face. So it's easy to judge her as over projecting. 

Think of it in terms of trauma. If you were traumatized by something, you would extra paranoid about everything that even remotely reminds you of the trauma that happened. It's PTSD showing up in bits and pieces.

For example if I was sexually traumatized at a young age, it's much easier for me to be paranoid around anything of the sexual nature and freak out even if the person didn't intend to hurt me sexually. 

All of this wouldn't happen if racism didn't exist in the first place. It's like a chain reaction that is set off and nobody can stop the end effects of this chain reaction. 

It's unfortunate side effect or by product or end product, nevertheless it's root cause lies in racism itself. Maybe as racism declines, it will flush out on its own. 

[Forestluv]

@Preety_India When I saw her saying that transforming the black character into an animal was racist, my first reaction was “Oh c’mon. It’s an animated cartoon and it’s harmless. Don’t spoil the fun”. . . Yet then I considered that black people have been de-humanized and caricatured as animals for hundreds of years. And after a quick google search, it seems a lot of animated videos caricature people of color as animals. Now I can see how it can be perceived as racist. If I lived in a culture that had caricatured my race as animals, I’d likely be sensitive to that. 

Who gets to decide what counts as racism and what’s harmful? Is this a harmless case of a cartoon being creative with human-animal transformations? Or is it perpetuating stereotypes of black people as sub-human. Sometimes these things are in grey areas and there are different ways to look at it.

[Preety_India]

@Forestluv

Racist white people (not all white people to be clear) tend to not only regard black people as subhumans but they extend this perception to all other colored races as well. 

I didn't know how it felt to be dehumanized as a subhuman until I met my first white boyfriend in America and it was an eye opener. 

Like one day I remember we were both having a discussion about having children. I was excited to have kids with him. And I began to discuss baby names with him. 

Over the course of that discussion, he was a bit miffed at the idea of me having his kids. He wasn't very excited and I was sensing his discomfort and I began to ask him about it and he told me at that point that he didn't think it was a good idea for the two of us to have children because he thought that our child was going to be having inferior genetics. He told me how my child won't have blonde hair but black hair, like my hair, and how he didnt like the fact that our child would be mixed and in his opinion our child would be "less white" than typical white kids and so he kinda felt insecure about how inferior our child would be in front of other kids. 

It almost felt like he meant to say that our child would be subhuman because of my genes in the baby. 

Needless to say that day wasn't the best day of my life and that incident was etched in my memory. 

 

[Preety_India]

@Forestluv also he would constantly refer to him  as my child instead of "our child" because in his mind he was already disowning our future child, somehow the child being mixed made him feel like he didn't belong to him since he wasn't going to be "fully white." 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Preety_India

[Shane Hanlon]

39 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I can't really blame her if she has been exposed to racism all her life. 

It's difficult to predict what racism does to the psyche since I or you never had to face racism on the level that black folks have to face. So it's easy to judge her as over projecting. 

Think of it in terms of trauma. If you were traumatized by something, you would extra paranoid about everything that even remotely reminds you of the trauma that happened. It's PTSD showing up in bits and pieces.

For example if I was sexually traumatized at a young age, it's much easier for me to be paranoid around anything of the sexual nature and freak out even if the person didn't intend to hurt me sexually. 

All of this wouldn't happen if racism didn't exist in the first place. It's like a chain reaction that is set off and nobody can stop the end effects of this chain reaction. 

It's unfortunate side effect or by product or end product, nevertheless it's root cause lies in racism itself. Maybe as racism declines, it will flush out on its own. 

I agree with everything you said. I also think that the anti-racism movement has inflamed an overemphasis in interpreting everything as racist which ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Making the world into a more racist place than it actually may be. Because almost any action could have a racist interpretation if you are looking for it. We can simultaneously give these people the space and love they need to heal while also not instantly believing every claim to racism as well.

 

25 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Who gets to decide what counts as racism and what’s harmful? Is this a harmless case of a cartoon being creative with human-animal transformations? Or is it perpetuating stereotypes of black people as sub-human. Sometimes these things are in grey areas and there are different ways to look at it.

 

@Forestluv It really is up to interpretation. But it is only racist as long as the racist interpretation is prevalent in society. What to do about that I'm not sure.

[Shane Hanlon]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I didn't know how it felt to be dehumanized as a subhuman until I met my first white boyfriend in America and it was an eye opener. 

Like one day I remember we were both having a discussion about having children. I was excited to have kids with him. And I began to discuss baby names with him. 

Over the course of that discussion, he was a bit miffed at the idea of me having his kids. He wasn't very excited and I was sensing his discomfort and I began to ask him about it and he told me at that point that he didn't think it was a good idea for the two of us to have children because he thought that our child was going to be having inferior genetics. He told me how my child won't have blonde hair but black hair, like my hair, and how he didnt like the fact that our child would be mixed and in his opinion our child would be "less white" than typical white kids and so he kinda felt insecure about how inferior our child would be in front of other kids. 

Wow, that must feel really bad. I'm sorry.

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

 

@Forestluv It really is up to interpretation. But it is only racist as long as the racist interpretation is prevalent in society. What to do about that I'm not sure.

It depends on how far you want to push the concept of “interpretation”. For example, I was in a bar one night with my GF and a couple of guys cornered me and threatened to kick my ass because I was dating a black woman. Here, I don’t think it’s fair to say I was just “interpreting” it as racist. They flat out told me they didn’t want me dating a black woman. Those guys weren’t intellectualizing about how racism is a social construct. This visceral actuality of racism is prior to that. They saw a white guy in a sexual relationship with a black woman. That made them angry. They wanted to express that hate by physically threatening us and physically beating us up. They were not consciously interpreting. It was the actuality of racism expressing itself.

This gets into the idea of perceived racism and if we go too far with it, it puts too much of the burden on the recipient of racism - that the impact of racism is “all in their mind”. That night, I had a legitimate fear for my safety and the safety of my GF. I went into full flight or fight mode. We ended up choosing flight or fight a d were able to escape. I had pulses of stress for weeks that we would run into those guys again. That was a mini trauma that had an impact on me. I don’t think it’s fair to say that I was just “interpreting” racism.

From my POV, you are only considering one side of the coin - the side of manufacturing / portraying racism from a conceptual mindset. Yet you aren’t considering the actuality side of racism. There are two sides of the coin and there is a spectrum with many possibilities bridging the two. I live in a poor, majority black area. Impacts of racism is all around me. Go live in a poor inner city black neighborhood and see what it’s like. 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

I think that's fair. As I mentioned, she looked through a lens of racism. For example, we were waiting for a table in a restaurant and noticed we were skipped over by a white group that came after us. She interpreted that as racism. Yet I worked for years in restaurants and knew that during peak hours, if a table for 4 opens up, you try to give that to a group of 4, not a group of 2 - especially if a table for 2 is about to open up. I didn't get the sense the hostess intentionally skipped us due to race. My GF often over portrayed racism. There were times I think she added it in and it spoiled an interaction. 

However, there were times we were undeniably targeted due to our inter-racial status. I think it would be fair to speculate that after being exposed to racism on a consistent basis, one can begin to over project it. I probably started doing it. Part of it is to maintain one's wellbeing. I wouldn't say I was over-projecting, yet I did develop a new radar for it - in part to protect us. I definitely became more sympathetic and empathetic after getting some direct experience.  

I'm in Michigan. We have pockets of healthy green, yet there is still a lot of underlying racism here. My impression is that Vermont is one of the most progressive states in the country. If I had the opportunity, I would move to Vermont in a heartbeat. 

Michigan's really a microcosm of the entire country in a lot of ways; cities like Ann Arbor and Ferndale are as progressive as anything you'll find on the West coast, while rural areas forty minutes away are deep Blue Trump country. Only thing Michigan doesn't really have is a huge SD-Orange financial Capitol that would be an analogy to something like New York City.

[Shane Hanlon]

@Forestluv Yes, you are right. There are certainly incidents of racism where you would have to perform mental gymnastics of olympian levels to deny racism, like the one you just mentioned. I'm sorry that that happened. That sounds very scary. I certainly acknowledge racist events and that often times the

best interpretation is racism.

24 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

50 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Who gets to decide what counts as racism and what’s harmful? Is this a harmless case of a cartoon being creative with human-animal transformations? Or is it perpetuating stereotypes of black people as sub-human. Sometimes these things are in grey areas and there are different ways to look at it.

 

@Forestluv It really is up to interpretation. But it is only racist as long as the racist interpretation is prevalent in society. What to do about that I'm not sure.

In this instance, I was specifically talking about the example you mentioned in soul.

I don't think I've got it right, but I don't think I am solely considering one side. I am focusing on it here because I generally don't see people recognize this side of anti-racism. Where as the helpful side has gone mainstream.