Understanding Pick Up

[soos_mite_ah]

@Preety_India its not

[Gili Trawangan]

Of course pick up has its limits and needs to be transcended.

But telling a guy who knows nothing about seduction and is hopeless with women to just "be himself" is usually a recipe for disaster (or just inadvertent abstinence). It takes a lot for a guy to be able to "be himself", it's an entire life journey.

There will always be a backlash to pick up on the part of some women, but with some empathy they can sympathize and understand it.

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, 7thLetter said:

For sure. You might've watched it before but Leo has a really good video titled "How To Be a Man - Part 2 (Advanced Version)" Where he talks about the healthy approach to being a man, manipulation tricks out the window and becoming more authentic.

I haven't watched this video but now I'm back after watching it. I also watched part 1 while I was at it. To me, part 1 is very stage orange while part 2 is like green +. I'm actually impressed by the growth in what it means to be a man between these two videos. To me, this also articulated really well  why I personally always found myself attracted to feminine men. I personally found guys who tend to appear more feminine or at the very least integrated the feminine aspects of themselves tend to not only have a more mature sense of masculinity but also more emotional intelligence overall, two things that are often a driving force in attracting high quality people. 

Maybe this is just the stage green, wanting to crush hierarchy, part of me coming out but I think that assigning gender to any type of personality trait is stupid and lacks holism. Masculinity and femininity is a good way of describing dualities and energies but they really aren't that different. I saw this thought come out especially when I was watching part 1 (part 2 is all about integrating the feminine to enhance the masculine so there is that). In part 1, Leo talks about how to be a man you need to be authentic and penetrate the world with you authenticity. You can also do a spin of this in a way that is framed as more feminine, how vulnerability is a huge component in what it means to be authentic. He also talks about being on a mission and having a strong sense of life purpose and how creativity is a very masculine thing because it's like you are planting your seed on to the world. I've also heard having a sense of purpose be spun in a feminine way as well how that mirrors the creativity of giving life in other ways other than the biological. Finally, he talks about how not being needy is important in masculinity but it can also be a very feminine thing  because a feminine woman is one that doesn't need to settle and can wait to find a partner that provides the most in her life beyond the material. 

For my personal experience, I always tended towards being more masculine but I noticed that ever since I incorporated more femininity, that sense of confidence that came from accepting my vulnerability spilled over to other areas in my life to where I caught myself being more assertive and more forward moving. In a way, my natural sense of masculinity was heightened if that makes sense because I was honoring the whole of myself instead of a part. 

Also another thing that I want to address that I noticed with pick up and also the part 1 video is this notion that you have to be hypersexual and have sex with lots of girls in order to be masculine. There is this cultural notion that a man has to always be getting laid and always in the mood for sex in order to be considered a man. That is messed up and can have a variety of negative consequences on men from what I have observed. Firstly it can have men be super self conscious about being a virgin and therefore have them drift to red pill like sources. But in a more dangerous context, this notion that a man is always supposed to want it can make things like male sexual assault as something that is over looked or not taken seriously. I also started reading The Game (i'm currently half way through), and there is this part where one of the guys is known as being a "natural" because attracting girls came naturally to them . I was like ok no big deal but then the book goes on to mention that this guy started being known as a natural because he lost is virginity at 11 by his baby sitter who was 15 years old.  I then immediately thought *that is literally and elementary school kid getting taken advantage of by a high schooler*. It's fucked up. I remember when I read this part, I felt sick to my stomach because essentially this guy got raped as a child but instead of seeing the event as the horrible thing that it is, it is seen as a sign that he is good with girls because, hey guys are supposed to enjoy sex in all circumstances right? SMDH   

Edited January 23, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

@Preety_India its not

Pick up culture kinda justifies it. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Pick up culture kinda justifies it. 

Yeah and their justification is piss poor to where most people who have common sense, a braincell, and any amount of consciousness / self awareness can see that something is sketchy in that way of thinking. Some people get so blinded by their pain that they fall into their selfishness out of self preservation and in turn ignore the well being of other people. Also people will come up with any type of justification to convince themselves that they aren't devils. To recognize that what you demonize is also what is within you is like lemon juice on an egoic wound. That pain can come with all types of defense mechanisms ranging from cognitive dissonance all the way to denial. 

[Gesundheit]

Confusing pick up with pick up artists is like confusing women rights with radical feminism.

[7thLetter]

@soos_mite_ah Definitely agree with a lot of what you're saying.

3 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

That's what a lot of women on this forum is taking about when we talk about the limits of pick up. Red pill makes a caricature of women which makes it hard to actually connect with women. It's the same used car sales man vibe all over again that usually makes a woman want to auto reject (many but not all). That's why you have to approach so often. When I first came to this forum and I saw men talk about 50-100 approaches, I thought that was insane. I knew that it is in a way more difficult for guys because they are expected to be the ones approaching and that many guys are bound to be rejected numerous times before they get a yes, but 50-100 seemed way too big of a number. To me, that figure is so big to where you need to reevaluate the tactics you are using. If you only succeed 1-2% of the time, there is something up.

Did they say 50-100 approaches a day? That's a little much, you'd probably have to be out for 24 hours to do that big of a number. In my experience, realistically I was doing maybe 5-20 a day depending on my mood. That's still quite a lot but when it comes to pickup, taking a high volume approach to approaching women usually works best. In the pickup groups I was involved in, we always had this attitude of "we need to approach as many women as possible." It was sort of like we treated it as if it was a sport. At the start of each day we would have to 'warm up' and approach any girl even if we're not attracted to her. And its actually helpful to warm up because you will do a whole lot better with the girls you approach later on. The girls you approach later on are the "hot" ones that you take more seriously in conversation. Plus, when it comes to "playing on the field", you would always have to build up the momentum. Your momentum starts at 0 at the start of each day, then as you approach more and more you start to build up the momentum. I remember being at the peak of the momentum multiple times, we would call this "God Mode" or a "Flow state." It sort of feels like a high, its a state of euphoria where you just don't give a shit about what anyone thinks of you and approaching random people comes so naturally and easily for you. Also conversations become so effortless. This is the complete opposite of social anxiety.

There's definitely something up with their approach when guys report a small number of success, but at the same time we've also always thought of it as a "numbers game." 1 out of 10 girls will like you and give you their number, and 1 out of 10 of those numbers will go on a date with you. That's just how it works. I think every other PUA would agree with me on this, its always a 5-10% chance of getting a desired result. But of course pickup is a skill you can develop to increase your odds of success.

I'll share with you my newbie numbers I did within' a year of pickup. I truly believe I had a wrong approach to pickup so I didn't have a lot of success, plus I was a newbie. Within' a year, I did over 500 cold approaches. I aimed for around 10-20 per day, went out 4-5 days a week to clubs, streets, malls, libraries, universities, etc. Wasn't working full time at the time and so I was out for usually 6-8 hours a day. Within' those 500+ approaches I got around 60-70 phone numbers. Unfortunately I didn't really get any dates out of those phone numbers, probably because I sucked at texting or I didn't call them, OR I just wasn't actually interested so I didn't contact them. So about a 10% chance of getting a number, and 0-1% chance of getting a date.

3 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

To me, part 1 is very stage orange while part 2 is like green +. I'm actually impressed by the growth in what it means to be a man between these two videos.

Yup that's what I liked about part 2 and found it relevant to this conversation so I recommended it to you. Leo did pickup too back in the day so I think that's what influenced the ideas he talked about in part 1.

3 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Also another thing that I want to address that I noticed with pick up and also the part 1 video is this notion that you have to be hypersexual and have sex with lots of girls in order to be masculine. There is this cultural notion that a man has to always be getting laid and always in the mood for sex in order to be considered a man. That is messed up and can have a variety of negative consequences on men from what I have observed. Firstly it can have men be super self conscious about being a virgin and therefore have them drift to red pill like sources. But in a more dangerous context, this notion that a man is always supposed to want it can make things like male sexual assault as something that is over looked or not taken seriously.

Its similar to the social pressure of how girls who sleep around are seen as "sluts", but in the female's case its the complete opposite. Perhaps its not feminine for a woman to be sleeping around? As a guy its seen as a "cool" thing to go out and get laid and get your "lay count" up. Probably because getting laid adds to your social proof as a man if you know how to get into a girl's pants, because of course a lot of guys see women as difficult and it takes confidence to talk to women and eventually get the desired result. In the girl's case, getting laid is probably so easy because every guy wants to sleep with them (depending on their looks). So in the girl's case, I would imagine they have to be a lot more selective with who they choose to open their legs to.

[soos_mite_ah]

6 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Did they say 50-100 approaches a day?

No, 50-100 approaches total before you see any girl give you her number or you get laid.  And also what you discussed seems fair enough. Just approaching a women isn't a problem. But the lengths at which some pick up artists go can be extreme. I think @Gesundheit put it well where you can't confuse pick up with pick up artists. 

7 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Its similar to the social pressure of how girls who sleep around are seen as "sluts", but in the female's case its the complete opposite. Perhaps its not feminine for a woman to be sleeping around? As a guy its seen as a "cool" thing to go out and get laid and get your "lay count" up. Probably because getting laid adds to your social proof as a man if you know how to get into a girl's pants, because of course a lot of guys see women as difficult and it takes confidence to talk to women and eventually get the desired result. In the girl's case, getting laid is probably so easy because every guy wants to sleep with them (depending on their looks). So in the girl's case, I would imagine they have to be a lot more selective with who they choose to open their legs to.

I mean there is that whole notion of being a slut and not being seen as feminine if you sleep around. But then there is the other thing where if you don't sleep around much or you are a virgin, suddenly you get seen as this super innocent religious / judgmental prude who doesn't know how to have fun (or that you are too ugly/crazy to get a man). I've got plenty of weird stories of women being treated weirdly just because they are choosing to wait. I have my stories as well and for me, my reasons for waiting is purely secular. If you are a woman, you lose either way. You're a slut if you do and a repressed prude if you don't. It can get complicated and it's a huge topic of judgement. 

[7thLetter]

@soos_mite_ah One final insight I want to add to this thread is the fact that most of these men tend to lean towards following the Red Pill either because it has been popularized by the internet, they've been indoctrinated, and they don't know any other alternatives, or they do know the alternatives but they choose the Red Pill because its the easiest route for them when it comes to attracting women.

I have this understanding that people tend to lean towards the easiest route that is most convenient for them when it comes to almost everything in life. Rather than going to the gym and eating healthy, they sit on the couch and eat potato chips all day. Rather than cooking for themselves they go and order pizza delivery. You get my point. So in this case, the Youtube channel "Casey Zander" I shared with you earlier is the difficult route and alternative to Red Pill. Casey teaches men to build their body, build their own business, earn financial independence, practice nofap, etc. But this is difficult for most men to do and most would rather use manipulation techniques to get women because its easier and it gives them the leeway to run away from working on themselves internally.

[Preety_India]

Just now, 7thLetter said:

But this is difficult for most men to do and most would rather use manipulation techniques to get women because its easier and it gives them the leeway to run away from working on themselves internally.

This is actually the gist of everything I was trying to get at. 

When men do things the easier way the final pay off is dissatisfaction. 

Would you want to remain stuck in a Rut and trade life for chump change where you do easy tricks to get by 

Or would you want a greater reward by actually working hard in your life, building your business, having a sense of security, developing self confidence, feeling great about yourself and retaining the confidence for the rest of your life. 

The choice is clearly yours. 

No point in wasting life over little things. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

@7thLetter Goes back to the whole using manipulation tactics and cheap tricks to look like a quality man vs. actually building your life so that you are a quality man. On top of getting laid, the manipulation tactic also makes for a perfect distraction from the things they actually need to work on. You get your perceived notion of success and you get to stop thinking about your problems. It's a brilliant self deception tactic for the ego if you ask me. 

Also sorry to get off topic but being on this forum has brought this to my mind. what's the whole deal with no fap? Seems very strange and unnecessary coming from a woman. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[7thLetter]

@soos_mite_ah Yup, red pill/pickup mainly teaches men how to get laid and have an "abundance of women" but doesn't teach you how to get a quality long-term fulfilling relationship. Men think that they want all the women in the world but deep down they probably genuinely do want a long-term intimate connection with a woman. It's like how most people desire millions of dollars and all these materialistic things but those are all just the desires of the ego.

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Also sorry to get off topic but being on this forum has brought this to my mind. what's the whole deal with no fap? Seems very strange and unnecessary coming from a woman. 

Nofap is this whole entire "self-improvement" movement that has become pretty popular amongst men on the internet. I've heard of women following it as well. Basically the people who follow the practice see certain benefits to it such as overall confidence, increased strength in the gym, clarity of thought, increased happiness, motivation, discipline, less anxiety, etc. Just a lot of general health benefits that come with it.

It's often a topic for debate though cause one side thinks its bullshit and placebo while others genuinely believe it can improve your overall quality of life.

IMO its just another additional self-improvement or spiritual practice that one can add to their list of other daily practices along with meditation, working out, eating healthy, breathwork, cold showers, etc. And it should never be the one and only practice that guys rely on for all these sorts of benefits. Because people could be eating healthy salads all day but to not include working out at the gym or jogging to their daily routine, that wouldn't maximize the health benefits that they acquire and perhaps desire.

Longest streak I've been on was 70 days, I definitely noticed the benefits. But at the same time it also could've been a placebo effect. Honestly though it probably does work because you're basically removing yourself from the strong addiction of fapping & watching porn. An addiction that almost everyone has which definitely isn't healthy if its excessive and consumes part of your life.

Casey Zander is popular for talking about it because it adds to the quality man that men can become. Men who fap all day are the horny ones who most likely would be the type of guys to do pickup. While removing the addiction helps with your overall motivation to find your purpose/start a business, and to stop chasing pussy. So I really see it more as an internal work process rather than an external work process.

Of course I probably just scratched the surface of it but there's a lot more to learn about it online

[soos_mite_ah]

22 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Men think that they want all the women in the world but deep down they probably genuinely do want a long-term intimate connection with a woman.

I was talking about this with a friend a couple months back. We were talking about why some of fwb relationships don't work and why there is often one party that gets attached. Part of it I think has to do with either not knowing what you want or not being honest with what you want. There are people who believe that being in a fwb will eventually lead to developing feelings because of how physical you are, but I feel that instead of developing feelings, the relationship unveils repressed desires which are then projected to whomever you were having a fwb relationship with regardless of who that person is. 

For example, a lot of girls get attached to a guy in a fwb relationship because deep down inside they didn't know that a committed relationship was what they wanted either because they were told that in order to be "cool" you needed to be hooking up with people and be ok with getting less than what you want. Boundaries you ask? No you don't want to communicate that openly, then you'll look crazy. When it comes to sexuality, sometimes it's difficult for women to figure out what they want for themselves because you get shamed either way. You get shamed for being prude and uptight if you are just looking for a long term relationship and you get shamed for being a slut for wanting to sleep around. The amount of judgement that's there can cloud your own authenticity. 

For guys who get attached to a fwb when they weren't being honest with what they want, a lot of it I think can boil down to toxic masculinity. You aren't supposed to want to have a monogamous relationship and tie yourself down. Are you crazy? You're supposed to want to fuck as many girls as possible or else you're not a real man. Just in general, men have a lot of issues with developing close relationships with their friends compared to friendships around women. Because as a man, you aren't supposed to get emotional and be vulnerable with what's going on with you even if you are around friends. That also trickles into the romantic field where you are expected to be stoic instead of building a connection with a woman. So then the guy resorts to being emotionally unavailable and the mask sometimes slips off when they get attached for whatever reason. 

And then there is people of both genders who feel the need to mask their need for intimate emotional connection with a lot of sex with multiple partners because being vulnerable and emotional is generally seen as a weakness and as an embarrassment. Goes back to the whole toxic masculinity thing and how femininity and traits associated with femininity tends to be degraded and shamed. 

Just out of curiosity, what do you think about this take? 

 

Also with the whole no fap thing, I get a strong suspicion that it is placebo in a lot of cases. But I do think it can be helpful for people who are trying to build up their self discipline muscle or people who are trying to get over a porn addiction. I guess for some people who masturbate for unhealthy reasons, masturbating and watching porn can carry this notion that sex isn't actually for you but it's for the people on the screen. Or it can be a distraction for some people from getting their lives together. I guess like with all things self help, it depends on the person and their situation when it comes to what kind of solution will work for them. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[7thLetter]

7 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you think about this take? 

I'd say its a pretty accurate understanding of what goes on in these types of relationships from a psychological perspective. From a scientific perspective, one thing to add here is that, attachment or the development of feelings from one party could also be the cause of the release of oxytocin in the brain after sex/physical intimacy.

I think its more common for girls instead of guys to develop feelings in these types of relationships. Not exactly sure if this is true or not but often times I think that girls hook up with guys because they think that it could lead to a potential relationship with a guy and then they get hurt if the guy doesn't want to commit. One time, my pickup friends back in the day had a house downtown. They all lived together, went out to the clubs every weekend and pulled girls home. Then one day one of them told me that someone threw a rock at their window and broke the glass. They don't know who did it but it was most likely one of the girls they slept with because one of them probably broke her heart. So like Leo mentioned in the Pickup Rant video, pickup causes a lot of collateral damage and this is a pretty good example of that.

For guys, while I did say they deep down want a meaningful connection with a woman, the ego also does want what it wants which is to sleep with a lot of girls and make a bunch of money. It could also be our Higher Self who desires this deep meaningful connection which could explain the development of feelings in fwb relationships.

Just some ideas, could depend on the individual(s).

7 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Also with the whole no fap thing, I get a strong suspicion that it is placebo in a lot of cases. But I do think it can be helpful for people who are trying to build up their self discipline muscle or people who are trying to get over a porn addiction. I guess for some people who masturbate for unhealthy reasons, masturbating and watching porn can carry this notion that sex isn't actually for you but it's for the people on the screen. Or it can be a distraction for some people from getting their lives together. I guess like with all things self help, it depends on the person and their situation when it comes to what kind of solution will work for them. 

The only thing that I've heard so far that science says about this, is the fact that your testosterone levels see a significant increase after 7 days of retaining your semen. Then it starts to drop to normal levels days after. So in that case it does work, because testosterone helps with your overall drive and willpower as a man. But for people to go months and years of not fapping, I'm not exactly sure what to say about that. If the benefits come within' 7 days then I don't see the purpose of going 100+ or 1000+ days of not fapping. Beyond the 7 day mark could potentially be where the placebo effect comes into play. At the same time, all these benefits could also be the cause of other daily practices such as eating healthy, going to the gym, meditation, etc. And their anxiety may not even be the cause of watching porn and fapping, but the cause of eating unhealthy, drugs, video games, not exercising, etc. So this is where it gets a bit tricky.

Another benefit the community talks about is the fact that it changes the way guys view women. Often times guys objectify women and see them as a sexual object rather than a real human being. Maybe because they watch too much porn, that could be the cause of this. So nofap could change this.

Definitely depends on the individual. But I still think that everyone would be better off without it, maybe watching porn is the real problem here. If watching TV is unhealthy then porn must be just as bad.

Edited January 26, 2021 by 7thLetter

[peqkno]

 

 

So here’s some PUAs who talk about RedPill from their POV and psychological understanding. 

There’s also another episode, next on the playlist maybe where they also address RedPill.

[soos_mite_ah]

9 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

I'd say its a pretty accurate understanding of what goes on in these types of relationships from a psychological perspective. From a scientific perspective, one thing to add here is that, attachment or the development of feelings from one party could also be the cause of the release of oxytocin in the brain after sex/physical intimacy.

I think its more common for girls instead of guys to develop feelings in these types of relationships. Not exactly sure if this is true or not but often times I think that girls hook up with guys because they think that it could lead to a potential relationship with a guy and then they get hurt if the guy doesn't want to commit.

The chemical aspect is definitely there. Numerous factors can be at play. In that conversation I was mainly trying to see it from social standpoint. And yeah I have heard of some girls pulling that type of thing only to get hurt themselves. It's messed up. You can't fuck someone into liking you or change their intentions in regards to what they want for themselves romantically. I think this desire to get someone to like you or commit to you comes from a scarcity mindset from both genders because if you had an abundance mindset, you would just go and find someone who actually likes you. 

9 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

The only thing that I've heard so far that science says about this, is the fact that your testosterone levels see a significant increase after 7 days of retaining your semen. Then it starts to drop to normal levels days after. So in that case it does work, because testosterone helps with your overall drive and willpower as a man. But for people to go months and years of not fapping, I'm not exactly sure what to say about that. If the benefits come within' 7 days then I don't see the purpose of going 100+ or 1000+ days of not fapping. Beyond the 7 day mark could potentially be where the placebo effect comes into play. At the same time, all these benefits could also be the cause of other daily practices such as eating healthy, going to the gym, meditation, etc. And their anxiety may not even be the cause of watching porn and fapping, but the cause of eating unhealthy, drugs, video games, not exercising, etc. So this is where it gets a bit tricky.

That makes sense. Huh interesting. 

9 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Another benefit the community talks about is the fact that it changes the way guys view women. Often times guys objectify women and see them as a sexual object rather than a real human being. Maybe because they watch too much porn, that could be the cause of this. So nofap could change this.

Definitely depends on the individual. But I still think that everyone would be better off without it, maybe watching porn is the real problem here. If watching TV is unhealthy then porn must be just as bad.

Yeah I can see this being a huge factor. I feel that porn is the main problem as opposed to masturbation. For some people, masturbation can be a way to get to know your body and a way to get in touch with your desires more if in the past you didn't do that or you were repressed in any way. That's why at first glance I thought *huh, wtf is this nofap thing about????* 

 

@peqkno I'll check on the video a little later because it is pretty long

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[soos_mite_ah]

On 1/26/2021 at 0:51 PM, peqkno said:

 

So here’s some PUAs who talk about RedPill from their POV and psychological understanding. 

There’s also another episode, next on the playlist maybe where they also address RedPill.

Ok I got around to watching this video as well as the one with James Marshall speaking on how to be a man (not sure if that video was on this thread or if I found it on a different one) 

They are both really good videos and I feel like I got a good idea on the whole topic of pick up, especially healthy examples of it. 

I'm going to be honest, I was really hesitant about starting this thread. As some people know I started right after another dumpster fire thread lol. I was nervous about this turning into another flame war and I did my best to be open minded and keep things diplomatic by putting my impulses to the side. I wanted to see what my blind spots were, if there as any information I was missing, and be exposed to another perspective. I think on my behalf, lack of information was a huge thing because the view I had of pick up was mainly the red pill, manipulation pick up when really pick up exists on a spectrum. And I feel like I came out with a little bit more understanding. 

[Roy]

Here is all you need to know to understand "pick-up" >>> It's from and for, men and boys who didn't get the social skills and development growing up that they needed in how to deal with the opposite sex, so now they are overcompensating.

That's literally all it is. It's not any more complicated than that.

Of course as should be obvious, whenever you are overcompensating for anything in life, it tends to be done in sloppy, reckless, and selfish ways.

 

[Striving for more]

@Roy

33 minutes ago, Roy said:

Here is all you need to know to understand "pick-up" >>> It's from and for, men and boys who didn't get the social skills and development growing up that they needed in how to deal with the opposite sex, so now they are overcompensating.

That's literally all it is. It's not any more complicated than that.

Of course as should be obvious, whenever you are overcompensating for anything in life, it tends to be done in sloppy, reckless, and selfish ways.

 

Bro that's such an ignorant position. 

Literally 95% of men don't have the social skills & confidence to attract the opposite sex. What the fuck you expect them to do? Just accept the fact they didn't have a privileged upbringing like you surrounded by social opportunities. 

Are poor people overcompensating when they learn how to invest money? 

Stop demonising self improvement.

Getting better at talking to girls & learning how to please a woman in bed is a positive thing for both genders. 

When guys are trying to improve themselves they'll get dissuaded by arrogant comments like yours. 

Full disrespect for your smug attitude. 

You're forming an opinion probably based on 1 PUA who's a rapist or misogynist or some shit, when reality most guys are just alone & want to get laid gain confidence. 

& You then simplify at as "that's all it is". Not really, I believe 95% of guys would benefit from pickup, there's nothing to lose from it

Edited January 28, 2021 by Striving for more

[Arcangelo]

2 hours ago, Roy said:

It's from and for, men and boys who didn't get the social skills and development growing up that they needed in how to deal with the opposite sex, so now they are overcompensating.

FYP