Understanding Pick Up

[Preety_India]

18 minutes ago, kras said:

For all the girls who are complaining about pick up. 

Lets imagine that you are a boy who has zero experiances with girls. You see all the cool guys who have their girl friends and have no problem attracting and sleeping with girls. Women have no interest in you and you feel completely isolated from the opposite sex, you are lonely and feel like shit. 

What would you do? What solution you will try to find?

To learn how to attract women without having the need to manipulate them and put their emotional health at risk. 

To respect women first and approach them sincerely no matter what someone says and not treat it like a game, but to be true to oneself whether I get girls or not, but to never depart from my core values. 

To set my intentions clear when I meet a girl and not objectify her or consider her a general replaceable girl, but to have an honest interest in being with her, not just for sex, but to get to know her, understand her and develop an intimate bond with her, not to fuck her and dump her later, but to respect her sexuality as she is respecting mine by accepting and trusting me, to be grateful to her for accepting me as her boyfriend and repaying this gratefulness with commitment rather than stabbing her in the back by quickly replacing her with another beautiful girl leaving her emotionally confused, hurt, distressed or tormented. 

By understanding that if she placed her trust in me enough to open her body to me and sleep with me, she didn't simply do it for a random sexual experience, but because she was emotionally invested and bonded with me, and respecting this emotional investment from her side by not playing mind games with her and toying with her feelings, treating her body with utmost respect and not using it as a cum dumpster, not making her feel emotionally unsafe by constantly betraying her trust, by realizing that she has emotional needs just like me as a man, and if I want my emotional needs to be respected by her, then I should respect her emotional needs as well and not cast her needs aside. 

By being good in bed and not always expecting that I should get all the joy in bed meanwhile she feels like her sexual needs werent satisfied. 

By attracting her and proving her that she is attracted to the right man and not simply attracting her just for the sake of fulfilling my ego, and then dumping her and breaking her heart when my needs are fulfilled. 

 

[kras]

27 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

To learn how to attract women without having the need to manipulate them and put their emotional health at risk. 

 

How? The boy need a coach/source to learn from?

[Preety_India]

23 minutes ago, kras said:

How? The boy need a coach/source to learn from?

It's also about morality or value structure. Not simply attraction strategies. 

People with a good heart and robust morals don't stoop to manipulating others to get something. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Preety_India

[soos_mite_ah]

@mmKay Thank you so much for linking that video. I was just about to ask for some sources. I'll be sure to binge later on 

6 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

So there's the problem, guys find out about pickup through the internet and adopt and implement what they've been taught from these teachers, Red Pill.

Here's another perspective for you to think about, after reading this maybe instead of being triggered you can empathize with these men:

Most of the guys who do pickup are guys who are just broken on the inside. Maybe they've never been loved before, never had a girlfriend, or they've recently dealt with a painful breakup. So these guys who get into pickup are mainly motivated to do it because of some sort of trauma or lack of love and/or self-love. While deep down most men are wired to desire a meaningful connection with a woman, pickup doesn't teach how to get this connection with a woman and turns men into a piece of shit. It only teaches men how to get laid. So men coming into pickup might have the intention to find a meaningful connection in the beginning, but once you become a part of the pickup community, these Red Pill ideas snowball and get to you. You have other PUA's reinforcing these ideas to you, you have the teachers talking about these ideas, and you have all the videos you watch, etc. Plus the act of pickup itself requires a trial and error approach. You have to approach so many girls to get good. You talk about having a less aggressive and healthy approach to talking to women, but after so many failed attempts and frustrations it can lead to the aggressive approach. And this is an important point I want to make, women are so difficult that men have created an entire fucking cult around women attraction. Essentially women as a collective has indirectly created the act of pickup and the Red Pill cult whether they realize it or not. No not just because women are hot and men are horny, its because women are fucking difficult. Dating or getting women in general is a struggle for most men so they resort to pickup or rape or kidnapping. This same idea can also be used to justify and understand all the other "bad" behaviors in the world. Theft? Well its mainly created by poverty, wanting something quick, and the fact that money doesn't come easy for them.

So you need to understand the bigger picture here. You're basically judging these men for being a piece of shit while there's much bigger problems behind it. The reason I personally got into pickup back then, was because dating was (and is still) hard for me, I've never had a girlfriend. I just had a strong craving for love and intimacy. I was and am just a broken man, its painful not having someone to be there to care for you and love you. To talk to and share your life with.

And yes I do understand you're talking about the aggressive approach and how men need to have a healthy approach to pickup, but just understand that there's much bigger issues at play here. Hypothetically speaking, in order to solve this entire problem you need to fix a whole lot. Its not as simple as just judging them for being aggressive and woohoo everything is magically fixed.

A lot of damage in society comes from a place of pain from the collective. While I can empathize with the pain, I cannot excuse the consequences. Reasons=/= Excuses. We are all broken in some shape or way but we don't all end up like this. I like on how you explained the red pill aspect of all of this because that is often what I see reflected in a lot of pick up language and concepts. That's why I get concern when I see things regarding pick up. I'm beginning to understand it a little more.  But I would disagree with women creating the red pill cult. Red pill is a phenomenon that is very rooted in the patriarchy. The reason why a lot of men don't understand women and find dating difficult is because (this is probably scratching the surface tbh) 

1.  Men aren't compelled to learn about social cues and emotional sensitivity as much as women: For women, we get taught this often to an extreme where we are told to take everyone else's emotional state to consideration but our own. 
2. Men are often compelled to repress emotions from society from a very young age: When people are cut off from their own emotions, often times we get cut off from other people's emotions and again out ability to empathize. Because of my upbringing, I do have experience in this. 
3. The female perspective isn't as vocal nor does it have much of a platform in society compared to the male perspective: We live in a man's world and often times we accept that as the norm rather than trying to understand anything else that can deviate from it.  

6 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Essentially women as a collective has indirectly created the act of pickup and the Red Pill cult whether they realize it or not. No not just because women are hot and men are horny, its because women are fucking difficult. Dating or getting women in general is a struggle for most men so they resort to pickup or rape or kidnapping. This same idea can also be used to justify and understand all the other "bad" behaviors in the world. Theft? Well its mainly created by poverty, wanting something quick, and the fact that money doesn't come easy for them.

This part screams !!!! YIKES !!!! I have met charismatic guys who have good social skills resort to manipulative and sometimes very dangerous shit. I think there is this image in society that a man who rapes a woman is like this social awkward hermit lurking in an alley way. That is not the case by far. It could literally be anyone. The common denominator is a desire to exert power. You cannot blame women for this. It reeks of victim blaming and is part

of men not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.  I know in a later comment you said that you aren't blaming women, I would look into that thought a little more closely.

You can't equate theft with rape. I can think of a good reason to steal things, or hell kill someone (like out of self defense for example) but I can't think of a good reason to rape someone regardless of gender. 

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that yes we all have a survival agenda when it comes to dating, but they are not all equal. Be very careful of false equivalencies. A guy feeling insecure about not being able to get laid and a woman being in fear for her life because disrespecting women is so normalized is not the same thing 

4 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

@Preety_India Lol.

You're not seeing how my perspective is actually a bigger picture perspective coming from a SD Tier 2 level. You're looking at it from a Green perspective and creating all these conclusions in your mind of what I'm implying here. "You're having the "enable the abuse and enable the abuser" mentality." "This is toxic." One sided thinking" etc. etc.

Sure, we can't weed out social evil with this type of thinking, but we can have an understanding in our minds that we must empathize and accept these people. Society will advance itself on its own over time and weed out these social evils on its own. With the help of all the Green people including you, this will move society forward. To incorporate Yellow or Turquoise thinking into this would not necessarily work.

To an extent I agree with this. But I think it's important to define what I mean by empathize and accept. Just because you understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean that you are ok with it or you agree with it. Sometimes accepting something isn't about agreement rather it is about acknowledgement. For instance, in order to deal with the causes of violent crime, you can't demonize criminals and create a war against them, rather you  have to empathize and understand the systems at play to create this behavior whether they are social or infrastructural. As for accepting and not agreeing, an example I can think of is the way left leaning people are more accepting towards America's racist past. While they don't like it and actively fight against the institutions it brought, they are willing to talk about it and not erase that history  while conservatives want to repress it and see America as this happy land of the free to feed into their egos because it hurts them too much to recognize their own racist ideology because it conflicts with their image of America and therefore their identities. What I'm trying to say is that you can be vehemently against manipulation and enabling abusers and still come from empathy and acceptance.

5 hours ago, Preety_India said:

You're thinking from a very one sided way. You're not a victim of sexual assault so it's kinda cushy for you to dole out prerogatives like "evil is a part of life, deal with it", with this mentality every social evil has to be accepted and we might as well begin to live like animals and loot each other to survive. 

There is a huge, yet nuanced difference between acceptance= being ok with something while acceptance = acknowledging the situation at hand. I agree with you Preety because it is so easy to feel like you can accept this reality when you aren't on the receiving end of it when it comes to accepting in regards to being ok/ at peace with it. 

4 hours ago, intotheblack said:

I think the main issue and triggering thing about pickup is that people don't want to feel used and abused.  Since women are much more emotional in general, they are more prone to feeling that way.  whereas it's less likely that a man would feel he had been used for sex.  If only everyone were honest from the get go there would be a lot less hurt and misunderstandings. If both parties are like, wanting to have fun and have no strings attached sex then it's ok, but it all depends on the person and how self aware they are. 

But no it's not like that for the most part, it turns into lies and games from unconscious people.  And this type of pickup is the mainstream, and that's why it's so triggering - because it's associated with men using women for sex.  Nobody wants to feel they were tricked into something.

someone else said previously on another thread that pickup should take another name.  If people used the word 'conscious dating' rather than using the word 'pickup' it wouldn't cause people to close off in defence.

Women aren't more emotional because that's just how women are. Women are more emotional because a lot of things that are done to us exists in a much larger social context and somethings don't ping at men the same way it pings at us because men don't have the same type of collective trauma. Also I 100% agree with differentiating between pick up and conscious dating. Pick up can be a loaded term that lacks nuance. From what I understand, pick up can range from how to develop social skills so you aren't scared shitless around women all the way to red pill. To me there is too much of a range for everything to be lumped into one category. 

2 hours ago, Snader said:

I intuitively feel that mastering seduction doesn't only make you good with girls, but it changes you as a human being. Going through those steps and living life that way will definitely move you up the spiral. I really resonate with how this guy talks about human development from perspective of dating, sex and relationships.

Why I think that as a man getting good with girls is one of -- if not the best -- way to develop yourself is because that area touches so many other areas of one's life and it opens doors (sometimes forces you through them) to improve yourself in other areas of life too, and it's nicely put into understandable form just like this guy has done with his 6 step model.

This video shows the bigger picture of pick up in my opinion.

100% agree with this. I know for me, learning how to flirt and be more open with guys has helped me develop as a person in numerous ways through many areas of life. I won't get into my story because I don't want to stray from the point but I can see the same being true with men. 

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

The title of the article is 

" Inside the rape trial that reveals the depraved world of pickup artists." 

https://nypost.com/2016/09/21/inside-the-rape-trial-that-reveals-the-depraved-world-of-pickup-artists/

Along with the red pill stuff I do know that there are a lot of pick up people who ended up in jail because of rape and/ or sexual harassments. When I saw those things, I will say that I wasn't surprised considering the themes I have delved into in my original post. 

[peqkno]

34 minutes ago, kras said:

Lets imagine that you are a boy who has zero experiances with girls.

@kras Yeah man. Been there. One solution: Pick-Up and dating advice. But also care with taking it too far. Girls do have right to complain, for the kind of Pick-Up which lacks genuine care and understanding does hurt them. 

@coca That’s some things Leo and maybe others said copy pasted. Maybe with additions. 

 

@Preety_India Okay, I’m confused? ...  Glad it lightened you up, though I genuinely panicked a little. 

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

To learn how to attract women without having the need to manipulate them and put their emotional health at risk. 

[...]

Thanks, some nice perspective. I can add sth to this part:

17 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

but to be true to oneself whether I get girls or not, but to never depart from my core values

What you’re describing to me sounds like Stage Green + ; and kinda like near endgame pick-up where you’re just okay whether you get the girl or not.

Though please take into consideration that it takes a while to get there, and most people who pick-up is sold to may have desperate desires for sex. And cause it’s a base need, that’s then the first thing on your mind. When that desperate need runs the show, plus you feel like you’ve never had sex or any woman much cared about you, or none explains it to you the way you just did above (cause the guy doesn’t have much exposure to women, or is just getting started learning dating) ... and you as the guy don’t know that there’s sth you don’t know (and may also falsely believe women have it easier and feel righteous), ... then all that stuff you want from a guy won’t show up.

 

... hope this doesn’t turn again into a dumpster fire.

[Preety_India]

47 minutes ago, peqkno said:

.. hope this doesn’t turn again into a dumpster fire.

Not interested ever in that kind of drama. 

[Globalcollective]

@soos_mite_ah Pick up for sure can be manipulative, unconscious and toxic however I think its also worth looking into why would someone want to get into pick up in the first place. Understanding this can help lead to more compassion and ability to help people involved grow out of some of the toxic side to it. Most of the time, people get into pick up as a reaction to pain, trauma or rejection of some kind and alot of the men involved are deep down just looking for love but have got lost and lead down the wrong path. Ive seen hundreds of guys get into pick up and yes a few of them do go over board and do questionable things however most come out of it on the other side married or in a relationship with better male to female relatability skills. 

I don't think shaming people involved would help them see the light. Maybe put yourself in there shoes and ask yourself why they do what they do. Might be worth actually meeting some also. Also worth asking yourself if you were a young shy man, wouldn't you want to better your dating skills? 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Globalcollective

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I do know that there are a lot of pick up people who ended up in jail because of rape and/ or sexual harassments.

Very few people are like that.

You have to understand that the type of person you are when you enter pickup is the type of person you are whiling doing pickup and while dating.

If a sociopath enters pickup, he will be a sociopath all throughout. And pickup is appealing for many narcissists and sociopaths. But that's far from the majority of guys. Most guys are not that way. What you see in the news is the most extreme cases. You don't hear about the thousands of guys just using pickup to get a girlfriend. The news will show you pickup guys who are also murderers.

[soos_mite_ah]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most guys are not that way. What you see in the news is the most extreme cases. You don't hear about the thousands of guys just using pickup to get a girlfriend. The news will show you pickup guys who are also murderers.

Fair enough. That is a very common media phenomenon. The loudest and the most obnoxious cases are the ones that get publicity and as a result there is this false sense of reality people can get into. But by no means do they represent an everyday scenario

Edited January 19, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[soos_mite_ah]

2 hours ago, Globalcollective said:

I don't think shaming people involved would help them see the light. Maybe put yourself in there shoes and ask yourself why they do what they do. Might be worth actually meeting some also. Also worth asking yourself if you were a young shy man, wouldn't you want to better your dating skills? 

4 hours ago, kras said:

For all the girls who are complaining about pick up. 

Lets imagine that you are a boy who has zero experiances with girls. You see all the cool guys who have their girl friends and have no problem attracting and sleeping with girls. Women have no interest in you and you feel completely isolated from the opposite sex, you are lonely and feel like shit. 

What would you do? What solution you will try to find?

I'm not trying to shame guys who get into pick up rather sometimes I do criticize pick up itself. Not to be cliche but it's the whole love the sinner hate the sin type of deal. But I feel that any critique to pick up can cause men to feel like they are being attacked because pick up can get tied to your identity like a lot of things. In this thread, I'm trying to understand pick up and present why it is I and many women get triggered by this type of content and language. I apologize if my long responses may look like I'm trying to fight but I honestly want to make sure I'm not missing anything in what I have to say and so that I can try to develop a more nuanced take on this apart from my initial *RED ALERT* response. 

 I didn't plan on getting into my point of view in regards to my relationship with dating because I didn't want to stray from the topic, but here I find it necessary. While I can't fully empathize with what it's like to be a guy in this situation, I do know what it's like to be a woman with little experience with the opposite sex. I also see some parallels which I do find interesting and applicable to this discussion. 

As a woman who didn't get any attention from guys (other than the sketchy kind I talked about in my original post), I did wanted to get better at dating and understanding how to maneuver these types of situations. I wanted a sense of normalcy because in my mind as someone who was then 18, never had a boyfriend, never kissed a guy, and sure as hell haven't had anything remotely sexual happen to me, I felt as if I was being left behind from my peers. I was afraid that these experiences made me less mature and socially inept. But most of all, I doubted my own sense of desirability and at times I did fall into a victim narrative where I thought things along the lines of "men are sociopathic assholes who just want to fuck and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" "no good guys exist/ good guys are extremely rare" "I'm not attractive to men nor am I relationship material" and "there is something inherently wrong with me." Plus, being seen as beautiful and worthy of a relationship, being pursued in a romantic sense, and having a relationship are very tied with femininity and often toxically so. I know a lot of women who base their self worth on whether or not they are in a relationship because society has taught us that this is what is the most important thing to have as a woman. Forget being smart, forget your success, the fact that you don't have a man means you are a failure and you are unlovable in some way. You are fucked up if you are single. 

I would imagine that as a man in a similar situation, you do feel abnormal and left behind for not having those experiences. And while it isn't the same as my situation, I can see how having a lot of sexual experience is very tied with masculinity therefore not being good with girls can feel very, not necessarily feminine, but rather emasculating. I can imagine wanting to scapegoat you're lack of experience to other areas of your life that you might feel insecure about whether that be you socioeconomic status, your looks, your introverted personality etc. I can imagine feeling like you are doing everything right in terms of being nice and still not getting anywhere therefore you build up this victim narrative of "women are sociopathic assholes who want money and materialistic things and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" or   "there is something inherently wrong with me" Plus, sexual experience is very tied with masculinity because we expect men to be horny all the time and constantly be out looking for sex. That can be pretty toxic. Especially with being a virgin, in some ways I can see it being worse for guys because there is no archetype of masculinity (at least from what I can think of) that is inclusive to guys who lack experience. In other words, you are fucked up if you are single. 

For both genders, society puts a lot of emphasis on being in a relationship or having sexual experience, and it isn't healthy for either gender. I've had people who when they find out that I'm a virgin or that I haven't had a boyfriend ever, they are shocked. They are always like "but you're so funny and smart etc. how can a good person like you can be single?" It's this notion that if you are single there is something wrong with you. But I have met both men and women who are perfectly normal healthy individuals who just didn't have much experience in dating for whatever reason. And when you hear that type of thing over and over again, it can be difficult to not internalize and wonder wtf is wrong with you. Like I feel like people who lack experience sometimes can fall into the trap of assuming they have virgin branded across their forehead and then begin to define themselves as such because they develop this limiting belief even though in reality most people can't tell or straight up don't care that much.    

I can go into the parallels between getting sucked into toxic mindset from what I have observed, but I'll pause right here so people can take a moment to read and respond. Plus I have shit to do and I'm tired of typing. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[SamC]

23 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I'm not trying to shame guys who get into pick up rather sometimes I do criticize pick up itself. Not to be cliche but it's the whole love the sinner hate the sin type of deal. But I feel that any critique to pick up can cause men to feel like they are being attacked because pick up can get tied to your identity like a lot of things. In this thread, I'm trying to understand pick up and present why it is I and many women get triggered by this type of content and language. I apologize if my long responses may look like I'm trying to fight but I honestly want to make sure I'm not missing anything in what I have to say and so that I can try to develop a more nuanced take on this apart from my initial *RED ALERT* response. 

 I didn't plan on getting into my point of view in regards to my relationship with dating because I didn't want to stray from the topic, but here I find it necessary. While I can't fully empathize with what it's like to be a guy in this situation, I do know what it's like to be a woman with little experience with the opposite sex. I also see some parallels which I do find interesting and applicable to this discussion. 

As a woman who didn't get any attention from guys (other than the sketchy kind I talked about in my original post), I did wanted to get better at dating and understanding how to maneuver these types of situations. I wanted a sense of normalcy because in my mind as someone who was then 18, never had a boyfriend, never kissed a guy, and sure as hell haven't had anything remotely sexual happen to me, I felt as if I was being left behind from my peers. I was afraid that these experiences made me less mature and socially inept. But most of all, I doubted my own sense of desirability and at times I did fall into a victim narrative where I thought things along the lines of "men are sociopathic assholes who just want to fuck and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" "no good guys exist/ good guys are extremely rare" "I'm not attractive to men nor am I relationship material" and "there is something inherently wrong with me." Plus, being seen as beautiful and worthy of a relationship, being pursued in a romantic sense, and having a relationship are very tied with femininity and often toxically so. I know a lot of women who base their self worth on whether or not they are in a relationship because society has taught us that this is what is the most important thing to have as a woman. Forget being smart, forget your success, the fact that you don't have a man means you are a failure and you are unlovable in some way. You are fucked up if you are single. 

I would imagine that as a man in a similar situation, you do feel abnormal and left behind for not having those experiences. And while it isn't the same as my situation, I can see how having a lot of sexual experience is very tied with masculinity therefore not being good with girls can feel very, not necessarily feminine, but rather emasculating. I can imagine wanting to scapegoat you're lack of experience to other areas of your life that you might feel insecure about whether that be you socioeconomic status, your looks, your introverted personality etc. I can imagine feeling like you are doing everything right in terms of being nice and still not getting anywhere therefore you build up this victim narrative of "women are sociopathic assholes who want money and materialistic things and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" or   "there is something inherently wrong with me" Plus, sexual experience is very tied with masculinity because we expect men to be horny all the time and constantly be out looking for sex. That can be pretty toxic. Especially with being a virgin, in some ways I can see it being worse for guys because there is no archetype of masculinity (at least from what I can think of) that is inclusive to guys who lack experience. In other words, you are fucked up if you are single. 

For both genders, society puts a lot of emphasis on being in a relationship or having sexual experience, and it isn't healthy for either gender. I've had people who when they find out that I'm a virgin or that I haven't had a boyfriend ever, they are shocked. They are always like "but you're so funny and smart etc. how can a good person like you can be single?" It's this notion that if you are single there is something wrong with you. But I have met both men and women who are perfectly normal healthy individuals who just didn't have much experience in dating for whatever reason. And when you hear that type of thing over and over again, it can be difficult to not internalize and wonder wtf is wrong with you. Like I feel like people who lack experience sometimes can fall into the trap of assuming they have virgin branded across their forehead and then begin to define themselves as such because they develop this limiting belief even though in reality most people can't tell or straight up don't care that much.    

I can go into the parallels between getting sucked into toxic mindset from what I have observed, but I'll pause right here so people can take a moment to read and respond. Plus I have shit to do and I'm tired of typing. 

@soos_mite_ah Interesting read. If you want to get a more  nuanced understanding of pick up I think it's hyper important to continiusly work to understand guy's struggles in daiting. I'll try to provid with some insights about this next and will put it in the context of when guys debate about why pick up is valid.

When pick up and strategies to attract girls is attacked, a lot of guys - including myself feel terrible misunderstood. It feels like girls when doing this don't take our concerns seriously and don't understand the struggles we are going thourgh when trying to attract girls. This feeling of not being understood is also reinforced and created when girls tell guys what attracts them but then is attracted to the opposite. In other words, many guys feel really hurt when they feel like girls do not understand, empathize or even to the slightest care to take on the man's perspective. When girls on top of that says - pick up is bad, many guys explode out of anger... cause the message is than again the projected sense of worthlessness, that I am not enough and that I should change.

Bingo, that insight came now, that's it - guys feel that when girls criticize pick up that the girls is telling them they are not enough, aka juding them to not be enough  ( it's a projection of the feared self image of being worthless)

This of corse mostly happens because the girls who rebell against pick up, also feel misunderstood and probably also feel like men are telling them they are not enough/ should change when girls feels like guys don't understand them. Both sexes the same challange. it's the same structure in terms of thinking - only the content of the thinking is different.

In sum, the whole discussion all boils down to that guys feel misunderstood and not empathized with and that girls feels misunderstood and not empathized with.  (Side note, this dynamic is super similar to a super toxic relationship with compatibility issues.)

Anyway, In order for all of us to step more into spiral dynamics stage yellow - we need to understand the other side better and heal ourselves and our trauma so that we can allow ourselves to love and accept ourselves and others - as we are. That's the work, that's the way to get the deepest understanding of pickup possible.

 

[soos_mite_ah]

15 hours ago, mmKay said:

@soos_mite_ah binge watch all of their videos, specifically from james marshall

 

I watched this video as well as a few others by him. It seems like really reasonable advice. I have a couple disagreements here (but then again that is me with literally any self help type of video because I try to take things with a grain of salt) and there but the overall premise of the video appears very healthy. It also mirrors a lot of the other dating advice videos I have watched that were geared towards women which I find interesting because it tells me that the process of attraction has a lot more similarities between the sexes. I guess if I were to find this video on my own, I would be more likely to just label this as general dating advice rather than pick up (but perhaps that is because of my previous limited understanding of the range of pick up across different levels of consciousness). I guess my question is, what is the difference between regular dating advice and pick up if there is any? 

[soos_mite_ah]

25 minutes ago, SamC said:

Bingo, that insight came now, that's it - guys feel that when girls criticize pick up that the girls is telling them they are not enough, aka juding them to not be enough  ( it's a projection of the feared self image of being worthless)

Both sexes the same challange. it's the same structure in terms of thinking - only the content of the thinking is different.

Anyway, In order for all of us to step more into spiral dynamics stage yellow - we need to understand the other side better and heal ourselves and our trauma so that we can allow ourselves to love and accept ourselves and others - as we are. That's the work, that's the way to get the deepest understanding of pickup possible.

I really appreciate your insight and yeah this was my main goal into starting this thread. I was hoping to see what elements of my resistance comes up in my end and what comes up in other people's end in order to understand the situation better. I noticed myself getting triggered and at this point I feel like I'm in a less reactive place to lean into that discomfort and come out the other side with more understanding rather than frustration. 

[SamC]

4 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I really appreciate your insight and yeah this was my main goal into starting this thread. I was hoping to see what elements of my resistance comes up in my end and what comes up in other people's end in order to understand the situation better. I noticed myself getting triggered and at this point I feel like I'm in a less reactive place to lean into that discomfort and come out the other side with more understanding rather than frustration. 

I know  I adore your efforts in trying to understand guys perspective - It's a rare thing. 

If we all did more of that, we will soon be able to turn this shaft called society around.

Edited January 19, 2021 by SamC

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I guess my question is, what is the difference between regular dating advice and pick up if there is any? 

Pickup involves high volume cold approaching. Regular dating does not.

[Preety_India]

The part where pickup culture goes seriously wrong is where they only teach men to get laid but don't teach them how to be a good partner or a good boyfriend 

That's how they set up men for failure for the rest of their lives 

It's screwed up. 

Not to mention the red pill philosophy that goes with it. 

Pure radicalization with the red pill thing. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

The part where pickup culture goes seriously wrong is where they only teach men to get laid but don't teach them how to be a good partner or a good boyfriend 

I can see how learning how to date or attract someone in order to get your foot in the door does not equate to learning how to be in a healthy relationship.

To me learning how to date also involves learning what you want and selecting a healthy partner wisely if that is what you wish to do.  And in order to choose a healthy partner or to be appealing to a healthy partner, it's important to have your own house in order. Which is why sometimes doing things right else where in your life can help you be more successful in your dating life and vice versa. In order to do all that and get into a healthy relationship to where you are a good partner, you're going to need a lot of self awareness and sometimes a shit ton of therapy. Solving a confidence issue or social awkwardness is scratching the surface of developing yourself as a person when it comes to conscious relationships.

Sometimes, people can go from being a socially awkward dumpster fire to a charismatic dumpster fire especially in the cases of red pill pick up. Which is why it's important to differentiate between curating a skill and actually growing as a person. Curating a skill can look like developing enough social skills to get laid but real growth involves changing your mindset, raising your consciousness, and evaluating your values. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Preety_India]

@soos_mite_ah yea that's exactly what I meant. 

 

[7thLetter]

19 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

 

A lot of damage in society comes from a place of pain from the collective. While I can empathize with the pain, I cannot excuse the consequences. Reasons=/= Excuses. We are all broken in some shape or way but we don't all end up like this. I like on how you explained the red pill aspect of all of this because that is often what I see reflected in a lot of pick up language and concepts. That's why I get concern when I see things regarding pick up. I'm beginning to understand it a little more.  But I would disagree with women creating the red pill cult. Red pill is a phenomenon that is very rooted in the patriarchy. The reason why a lot of men don't understand women and find dating difficult is because (this is probably scratching the surface tbh)

While I'm all about improving ourselves in every single way possible, spiritually, financially, socially, etc. I don't think its reasonable for us to judge or demonize these people just because they're not like us or the average human.

19 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

 

This part screams !!!! YIKES !!!! I have met charismatic guys who have good social skills resort to manipulative and sometimes very dangerous shit. I think there is this image in society that a man who rapes a woman is like this social awkward hermit lurking in an alley way. That is not the case by far. It could literally be anyone. The common denominator is a desire to exert power. You cannot blame women for this. It reeks of victim blaming and is part

of men not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.  I know in a later comment you said that you aren't blaming women, I would look into that thought a little more closely.

Just putting this out there, what I'm saying in this thread and everything else I've said so far is just me trying to exercise Tier 2 level thinking and is mainly for the sake of having an intellectually stimulating conversation. And so, I'm trying to look at these things from God's perspective. The whole entire basis of my argument is the fact that God created everything, these behaviors are a part of life and so its somewhat selfish of us to demonize these sorts of behaviors or people. Because the only reason anyone would get triggered by "evil behavior" is because of the fact that it threatens our way of living, the ego's way of living. But you guys don't really give a shit if insects attack another insects territory, even though the insect getting attacked thinks other insects attacking their territory is the worst thing in the entire world. Or you don't give a shit if millions of microscopic bacteria kill millions of other microscopic bacteria every single hour, because it doesn't affect your very own way of living.

And I am not blaming women even though you think I am. Just to make some sense of it, we can say its more like I'm blaming the nature of reality. Reality occurs, and certain things are just bound to happen. Because of the way reality is and how human nature is, all these social evils come about. And all these social evils come and go. We can take a look at history, study all the social evil in the past, and find out that they do not exist today. Because over time, society advanced itself and got us to where we are today.

Overall, we can demonize these people as much as we want, start riots, protest, but I personally won't be a part of all that, society will fix itself.

19 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

You can't equate theft with rape. I can think of a good reason to steal things, or hell kill someone (like out of self defense for example) but I can't think of a good reason to rape someone regardless of gender.

I think this is a subjective opinion.

19 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

 

To an extent I agree with this. But I think it's important to define what I mean by empathize and accept. Just because you understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean that you are ok with it or you agree with it. Sometimes accepting something isn't about agreement rather it is about acknowledgement. For instance, in order to deal with the causes of violent crime, you can't demonize criminals and create a war against them, rather you  have to empathize and understand the systems at play to create this behavior whether they are social or infrastructural. As for accepting and not agreeing, an example I can think of is the way left leaning people are more accepting towards America's racist past. While they don't like it and actively fight against the institutions it brought, they are willing to talk about it and not erase that history  while conservatives want to repress it and see America as this happy land of the free to feed into their egos because it hurts them too much to recognize their own racist ideology because it conflicts with their image of America and therefore their identities. What I'm trying to say is that you can be vehemently against manipulation and enabling abusers and still come from empathy and acceptance.

Again, I'm all in favor of the improvement of society, improving ourselves, but I'm not going to lose sleep over this type of stuff is what I'm basically saying.

Edited January 20, 2021 by 7thLetter

[soos_mite_ah]

8 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Just putting this out there, what I'm saying in this thread and everything else I've said so far is just me trying to exercise Tier 2 level thinking and is mainly for the sake of having an intellectually stimulating conversation. And so, I'm trying to look at these things from God's perspective. The whole entire basis of my argument is the fact that God created everything, these behaviors are a part of life and so its somewhat selfish of us to demonize these sorts of behaviors or people. Because the only reason anyone would get triggered by "evil behavior" is because of the fact that it threatens our way of living, the ego's way of living. But you guys don't really give a shit if insects attack another insects territory, even though the insect getting attacked thinks other insects attacking their territory is the worst thing in the entire world. Or you don't give a shit if millions of microscopic bacteria kill millions of other microscopic bacteria every single hour, because it doesn't affect your very own way of living.

And I am not blaming women even though you think I am. Just to make some sense of it, we can say its more like I'm blaming the nature of reality. Reality occurs, and certain things are just bound to happen. Because of the way reality is and how human nature is, all these social evils come about. And all these social evils come and go. We can take a look at history, study all the social evil in the past, and find out that they do not exist today. Because over time, society advanced itself and got us to where we are today.

It's good that you are trying to see god's perspective. But in order to move into tier 2, you need to be able to differentiate between the absolute POV and the relative POV and understand which is applicable in a conversation. I know that evil technically doesn't exist in the nature of reality in the absolute perspective but in this thread and discussion, I'm not trying to discuss the absolute. I'm discussing the relative, specifically the relative female perspective on pick up vs the relative male perspective. I guess what I'm trying to say, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. 

8 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Overall, we can demonize these people as much as we want, start riots, protest, but I personally won't be a part of all that, society will fix itself.

Expecting society to fix itself can easily turn to stagnation. Yes on the collective, we are all going on a certain trajectory, but the collective is also made of individuals, and as individuals we can't simply stay idle, look at each other, and do nothing. Society will fix itself but we are still part of society and we need to do our part whether it is having difficult conversations, in acting policy, having a life purpose etc. It doesn't mean we have to riot and demonize. And in this case it is also looking at the limitations and the strengths of things such as pick up. 

8 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

I think this is a subjective opinion.

You can literally say that about anything from an absolute perspective. Right now we are talking about the relative perspective. Be careful of false equivalencies. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by soos_mite_ah