Spiral stage of Gorbachev?

[Vrubel]

Just watched this interesting video by RealLifeLore. Gorbachev is the man who is held most responsible for the dismantling of the Soviet Union. It seems to me that he implemented some much needed economic and political reforms (Glasnost). He also refused to aggressively impose the army on republics and satellite states thus allowing for more freedoms and eventually independence in those states. He didn't become a regular stage blue communist but became a reformer without the heavy hand usually associated with Soviet politics. I know that this is a complicated issue. Many in Russia see Gorbachev as a traitor because his policies led to the dismantling of a "great empire" and for many life became harder. But I know that my father at least is very grateful to Gorbachev because he opened up the Soviet Union which allowed him to emigrate. 

I find it strange that we hear all the time about people like Gandhi and Nelson Mandela but that Gorbachev remains a pretty murky figure. What spiral stage did he act out? was it an exceptionally high one or was he just a very healthy blue? If you are from Russia, ex-USSR, or just knowledgeable I would love to hear your opinion.

 

[Leo Gura]

He strikes me as a Biden-like Orange/Green.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura Don Beck put him firmly at BLUE/orange, which is the second half of Blue.

[Jacob Morres]

@How to be wise does he have an explanation as to why? 

[DocWatts]

Coincidentally I just finished reading an excellent Pulitzer Prize winning biography on Gorbachev, which I'd highly recommend to anyone who wants an in depth examination of one of the most important world figures of the last fifty years.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38212114-gorbachev

I would agree with the assessment of him at Orange/Green, with the Biden comparison being an apt one. By the end of his presidency in 1991 he was clearly a Social Democrat; anyone who places him at Blue clearly doesn't understand him very well, and what made him so different from the mostly Red/Blue leaders in Russia who came before him.

I would also think this comes as a result of being unable to distinguish Gorbachev as an individual from the larger Soviet system that he emerged from. Yes, the Soviet Union was at roughly SD-Stage Blue when Gorbachev came to power, but that doesn't mean that all individuals who emerged from that system were Blue themselves. Also keep in mind that Gorbachev was far from a static figure, his thinking evolved and changed throughout his public life.

One thing that I've consistently come across in everything I've read and learned about the man is that he was a decent person who just happened to be living under an incredibly dysfunctional political system. He was also highly curious about other cultures and was willing to learn from them, which is a trait that emerges in Orange/Green (rather than Blue). I'll also cite his unwillingness to use force as a means to preserve the crumbling Soviet Union, which had begun falling apart partly as a consequence of the democratization he introduced during his six years of leadership. 

Of course he had his faults just like everyone else, not the least of which were his sense of pride and his tendency to butt heads with other political figures in Russia who would go on to become lifelong enemies, with Boris Yelstin being the most important of these. He was also much better at maneuvering within the old Soviet bureaucracy than he would be at playing the game of parliamentary politics that he fought so hard to introduce to Russia (when he decided to run again for President in 1996, he only managed to win about %0.5 of the Vote, and would end up in Pizza Hut commercials to fund his post presidential work). He also failed to anticipate how democratization would ignite nationalistic fervor in the other Soviet Republics, leading them to want to break away from the Soviet Union.

The economic reforms he introduced into the Soviet Union, though well intentioned, sadly weren't enough to revitalize the Soviet economy and reverse it's longstanding trend of stagnation, and also weren't enough to fight the systemic inefficiency and corruption within that system. The chaos that the country was thrown into in the nineties made things worse in many ways for ordinary people (though how much of this is Gorbachev's fault as opposed to Yeltsin's is debatable). 

Edited January 17, 2021 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

Of course he might have some Blue, but he's not centered at Blue. He's not the nationalistic sort. He's more of a globalist neoliberal type. Many in Russia felt he was too "soft" and betrayed Russian nationalism. But he also wasn't a pure pragmatist and materialistic businessman type. He has a more compassionate stance. Which to me seems Greenish.

He was ahead of his time and his peers.

Then again I haven't read too much about him. Just going by first glance interviews I've seen of him.

[DocWatts]

I'll also point out that he deserves more credit than any other Individual for ending the Cold War, which was a great accomplishment for the entire world. He was well and truly deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize he was awarded in 1990, and more than anything else this should be looked at as his crowning achievement.

Edited January 17, 2021 by DocWatts

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura From Spiral Dynamics book, “Gorbachev was... personally unable to break free of the BLUE/orange Communist shackles which he had begun to dismantle.” (Page 308)

[DocWatts]

6 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura From Spiral Dynamics book, “Gorbachev was... personally unable to break free of the BLUE/orange Communist shackles which he had begun to dismantle.” (Page 308)

That's just factually incorrect on Don Beck's part (Beck's a analysis of Gorbachev, not the quote). By the end of his Presidency in 1991 he was pretty clearly a Social Democrat who was pushing market reforms and trying to establish more of a mixed system in Russia, similar to the Social Democracies of Western Europe.

As to Don Beck, he was clearly a Conservative guy in some respects, and his analysis was likely due to personal biases on his part. Also Beck is apparently a Trump supporter now, so let's not put him on a pedestal...

[Apparition of Jack]

Am I crazy? The guy strikes me as 100% Green to me, not Orange or Blue.

His reforms of perestroika and glasnost seem heavily centred in a green worldview. He envisioned the USSR becoming a stage Green social democracy like Sweden or Norway, not a stage Orange capitalist ratrace like America. After the USSR collapsed he has spent his time advocating for things like peace, climate action and nuclear disarmament.

He’s not a stage Orange corporatist or stage Blue nationalist by any stretch of the imagination imo.  

[DocWatts]

13 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Am I crazy? The guy strikes me as 100% Green to me, not Orange or Blue.

His reforms of perestroika and glasnost seem heavily centred in a green worldview. He envisioned the USSR becoming a stage Green social democracy like Sweden or Norway, not a stage Orange capitalist ratrace like America. After the USSR collapsed he has spent his time advocating for things like peace, climate action and nuclear disarmament.

He’s not a stage Orange corporatist or stage Blue nationalist by any stretch of the imagination imo.  

Agreed; knowing what I do about Gorbachev, the idea that he's at 'one right way' Blue or even corporatist Orange is just not correct, for the reasons you outlined.

I think people have trouble separating him from the larger Soviet system. And while it's true that in order to gain power in that system he had to at least pay lip service to Blue rhetoric early on, what's clear is that he was playing by the Rules in order to Change the Game, so to speak. By the time he stepped down from the Presidency in 1991, he was clearly a Social Democrat. And since that time, he's been advocating for Green political ideals.

Assuming that Gorbachev is Blue just because he emerged from the old Soviet system is just as misinformed as assuming that every American politician is an Orange corporatist.

Edited January 18, 2021 by DocWatts