Girls... who have you felt understands you the best?

[Emerald]

17 minutes ago, Khr said:

I feel that whenever girls hear about pickup, they assume it’s just  this asshole guy whose agenda is just to bang a lot of women. In reality, often it is just regular guys who don’t have any experience with women and just want to get a girlfriend. I’ve seen guys like that at work, they are extremely shy and some basic pickup may be life changing for them. I feel bad for them, often they are really sweet guys, I think it is especially a problem in North America - I think it is because of the way high school is structured and they end up not having enough close exposure to women. Often they just end up with that one girl long term or it’s one of the next few girls they end up with.

I feel it would help a lot if the word “pickup” would get replaced by some other word. I feel the word “pickup” is triggering. 

I do understand that it is a lot of guys who just want to get some success with women. This is why I have no issue with pick-up being used for those purposes. I probably would try out pick-up if I were a man.

What I am saying is that pick-up creates a distorted image of female sexuality... just one that is more workable for the agenda of getting laid. So, it is only the misrepresentation of the female experience that is unnerving to me.

But I also think it's important to get men to realize that their notions of pick-up can write over the actuality of female sexual experience. And this will stand in the way of deeper bonding experiences.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Khr said:

But it is your choice whether you get used or not. You need to develop a good judgement of character, learn what techniques they use, it is your job to educated yourself to spot genuine men.

It's not easy though. There's no guarantee with such things. There's no guarantee with the phone I buy, it might break tomorrow despite the company's assurances, much less guarantee with men. 

 

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

My attraction comes from the months before that happens. 

I have to be attracted to a man BEFORE I have sex with him. And the quickness of pick-up doesn't give me the time I need to determine that. 

As I've said, it's usually a few months before organic attraction arises... if it will arise at all.

You have to watch a man when he's not watching you to know what a man is really made of. And this comes only from interacting with him often. You won't get very much information the real man if he's trying to do the mating dance at you. You certainly wouldn't get enough information to know if you're compatible or have chemistry with him.

[mandyjw]

Pick Up is a response to a specific human need in society that overall doesn't know how to relate to one another. Can you see the whole misunderstanding holistically or are you just interested in hacking you way through to make do and get yours? Eventually the whole problem will become unavoidable. It's like shoring up the unlevel third floor of house with more material and ignoring the fact that the problem is that the foundation is sand. No one is a bad person for doing pick up. But the reason it seems so necessary is the symptom of a larger, less personal problem. 

[Preety_India]

Just now, Khr said:

There is a good guarantee. I am so surprised sometimes how naive some of my friends are, I just want to slap them to wakeup. It just blows my mind how could someone get into a situation like that, red flags are just on fire. Nothing in life will be given to you on a golden plate with a bow, you want great genuine relationship, you have to put in the work.

It's not about work. 

Any judgement is always prone to errors. There's no accuracy with things. 

Yes I can be better with time and experience. Yet, there will never be a guarantee on human nature and character. 

It's not a line written in stone. 

Character changes like anything else 

The problem here is not my error in judgement because it's bound to happen even on my best days, the problem here is the lack of consciousness. 

Much of pickup, the bad kind, is rooted in unconsciousness. Hence it creates a lot of misery 

 When people start practicing pickup in more conscious ways, it will significantly reduce the chances of falling for men who a woman cannot experience a deep bonding with. 

 

[mandyjw]

Just now, Khr said:

Yes, absolutely. I was shocked when I heard one of my coworkers story. He said throughout high school/university, he barely spoke to any girls. A lot of men are very alienated, in ways we can’t imagine, it is a deep societal problem. 

Imagine if schools put an emphasis on teaching communication and social skills. On the fundamentals of living a happy life, not a measurable "successful" life. But as society is concerned, that's not important, only numbers. So the same men who were told that good grades and measurable success was everything rate women by numbers and count how many they sleep with. Then we blame them for doing what they were taught to do.

[aurum]

Yesterday I was at a spiritual workshop where we were healing the divine feminine / masculine within us.

As I was spilling my guys to a woman who was supposed to represent the divine feminine for me, I had talk about how distorted my view of femininity and women in general had become over the years.

Because of all the negative experiences I had in the past, my perception was so biased against women. Pickup fit into that world view.

It's a nuanced issue because on the one hand, I know how it can benefit guys. I was a part of that community for a while and it did help.

But ultimately, it still presents a distorted form of sexuality / dating.

What's even more interesting is that the feminine is so repressed, that even women don't always seem to realize it. They think this is normal and what healthy sexuality looks like.

And certainly we don't need to moralize against people who engage in a more surface level form of dating. But I don't find it fits with my current world view.

Pickup paints this picture that you are in charge of your dating life. Meeting a girl is an act of will that you can control. When in reality, I find that I meet a girl when the time is right. And most of the time it's not because of anything I "did".

If anything, it's like the universe decides that it's time for us to meet. And when that happens, the most bizarre circumstances can bring you together.

That timeline for that happening is also not necessarily on the "pickup" timeline. It could be fast, but it also could take a long time.

It's not about being passive. It's about really listening to what you want and feels good. What you feel guided to do.

Maybe that's approaching. But maybe it's nothing at all.

In other words, there's a lot of "force" that goes on in pickup. Guys trying to force themselves to approach. Guys trying to force themselves to be attractive. Forcing everything.

Maybe that's a useful paradigm for a while, but eventually you got to let that go.

I don't doubt that there's a conscious way to teach guys how to meet women. But so far I've seen very little of it.

Edited January 18, 2021 by aurum

[mandyjw]

13 minutes ago, Khr said:

I was deeply unconscious myself how I was acting with men for many years. Guys would approach me and I would get annoyed with them when they do. I wouldn’t think how hard it must have been for them to get the courage to talk to me - I would literally have an “ew” expression on my face. 

 I remember going up to a boy I barely knew in highschool to ask to borrow his math book because I forgot mine. The look of terror in his eyes as I walked up to him was completely unexpected. I thought I was shy and insecure. We're too often thinking only of ourselves, which is exactly what insecurity is. 

@aurum

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

In other words, there's a lot of "force" that goes in pickup. Guys trying to force themselves to approach. Guys trying to force themselves to be attractive. Forcing everything.

Better to reframe to something more like the Star Wars kind of Force.

[soos_mite_ah]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

Bruh at least take a girl on a couple dates and try to build some type of a relationship before going straight to having sex. Hell for a lot of women, they want to be in a relationship first before even thinking about doing anything sexual. Men are like microwaves. They can heat up instantly. Women are like crock pots, it takes us some time. There isn't anything wrong with one night stands or sleeping with someone on the first date, but i guess my thing is have some patience. This isn't how a lot of scenarios work out. Often times you need to have some time for some type of emotional rapport to build with a woman. That doesn't mean you HAVE TO get into a committed relationship before having sex, but I guess I'm afraid of this type of message being taken to the extreme.

That's my whole thing with pick up. The messages there can easily be taken to the extreme if it isn't in the right context (at least from what I see) and that is especially the case with guys who spend all of their time behind a computer screen with little to no social skills period, forget about talking to the opposite sex. A lot of those guys don't know how to see nuances, because again, lack of social intelligence/ experience and that can get a lot of those people into trouble. And those extremes can easily paint women and female sexuality as a whole as some type of a caricature instead of viewing women as human with their own individual needs. I have talked to my friends about what we want in guys and almost after every conversation, regardless of what each of our individual preferences are, we realize that our bars are on the floor because ultimately we want a guy who will treat us with basic human respect (whether it is in a relationship or a hook up) so that we can trust the guy and feel safe.  

Go ahead, do whatever you want to attract women idk, just keep malicious intent out of it and view women as human instead of a body to add to your count. Ethical pick up if you will is necessary. And part of it is being careful of how things are phrased and not painting large groups of people with broad strokes. Seeing nuances and avoiding stereotypes is the best way to build any amount of social intelligence.  

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, Khr said:

What will significantly reduce the chance is stopping the victim mentality, rolling the sleeves, and working on herself. You can’t change how men act, and it is stupid to try to do so, you can only change yourself.

It's not victim mentality. I'm pointing out the issue with pick up culture. 

If I said that rape culture is a problem, then you can't say it's a woman's fault she got drunk and didn't take enough precautions. 

You're putting the cart before the horse. 

There are no victims here and no need to jump on the victim mentality bandwagon 

Also the whole idea that a woman is attracted to an asshole only because she had some past trauma is kinda old and cliche. She might have fallen for him because he is funny or charming or attractive. 

What I'm pointing out is not some victim, it's not about creating some extreme narrative here. 

I'm only pointing out the perspectives that men in pickup culture have and how that mindset doesn't help the woman having relationships with these men. 

I don't mind the attraction part, the only part where men think it's okay to manipulate women. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

5 minutes ago, Khr said:

What kind of girl would just fuck a guy randomly without even dinner ? 

I mean it was an exaggeration but I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a lot of pick up prioritize racking up bodies rather than connecting to women and taking some time to get to know a woman. When you walk into a situation with the mentality of trying to get sex, women often shut down automatically because we are used to being approached in that way. Instead you need to be assertive and approach a woman with empathy and consideration first and foremost instead of immediately start thinking of getting to bed with her. I wouldn't be surprised it that is a lot of the reason why guys put girls they find attractive on a pedestal because they are so fixated on what they see as this unattainable sexual aspect of the situation instead of trying to get to know this girl like a normal person. 

On 1/16/2021 at 3:41 PM, Emerald said:

I feel that most men may have the impression that women have the upper hand in dating/relationships. That's true in the sense that you get a lot of male attention. But lots of male attention comes with A LOT of problems. Lots of men see you more as an idea and a drug than they see you as an actual human being.

So, there is a need to be on guard quite a bit. It's like if you were prone to attracting zombies (zombies being specifically men who are just looking for sex) and you just carry a big stick with you now everywhere you go to fight them off (the stick in the metaphor being the auto-reject response).

[Preety_India]

Just now, Khr said:

This woman is an idiot to fall for a guy just because he is “funny charming and attractive”. All the assholes are funny charming and attractive. She needs to stop being dumb. 

Yeah the rape example is totally out of context and added for dramatic effect here and is super toxic how you are mentioning it here.

Because it's toxic how you're trying to spin the whole thing into a victim narrative when the only objective is to show the problems in pickup and misconceptions and you're trying to make it out to be some women Empowerment lecture which is unnecessary. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

1 minute ago, Khr said:

This woman is an idiot to fall for a guy just because he is “funny charming and attractive”. All the assholes are funny charming and attractive. She needs to stop being dumb. 

I feel like unconscious pick up mainly works on women who are dumb, really naive, or are simply looking for NSA sex. There is a reason why most women don't respond to it and have an auto reject response. 

[oMarcos]

I see a lot of stigmatized dogma and to much seriousness in getting laid on a first date. Is a natural thing, why being so much burocratic.

[Recursoinominado]

20 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Bruh at least take a girl on a couple dates and try to build some type of a relationship before going straight to having sex. Hell for a lot of women, they want to be in a relationship first before even thinking about doing anything sexual.

[somegirl]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

I understand some relationships indeed began like this. But I think most would agree that in most cases, it doesn't work like that.

Women need to feel safe, first and foremost. She needs time to get to know the guy.  Build some kind of emotional connection and familiarity. Then after she is sure he is fine and gets intuitive impression she will not be used by him, sex can take place.

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Khr said:

The pick up solution is not ideal, but a lot of men are suffering and pickup gives them a foot into the door. The problem will be solved when it’s solved at the root and not when the symptoms are masked. 

I think the only person trying to create victimhood out of nothing  is you. 

Pickup has both the good and the bad. It's good for men with social anxiety who use it to have better chances in social situations. Fair enough. In fact good enough. 

But there are men who think it's okay to manipulate women not because they're evil, but because of all the wrong things they learned from a dating coach on female sexuality and less understanding of what women want or what hurts them. 

By pointing it out, it helps these men to not make those mistakes again if they want to be able to keep a girlfriend and not get dumped. 

 

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, somegirl said:

I understand some relationships indeed began like this. But I think most would agree that in most cases, it doesn't work like that.

Women need to feel safe, first and foremost. She needs time to get to know the guy.  Build some kind of emotional connection and familiarity. Then after she is sure he is fine and gets intuitive impression she will not be used by him, sex can take place.

Yep. This is what needs to be taught. 

And this is what I meant. 

 

[diamondpenguin]

But also it's much harder than that. She wants to be entertained by some jokes every 6 minutes. I dont know how long I can do that. Than 

[Preety_India]

21 minutes ago, diamondpenguin said:

But also it's much harder than that. She wants to be entertained by some jokes every 6 minutes. I dont know how long I can do that. Than 

Then she is not right for you. 

I don't remember asking my boyfriend to entertain me every 6 mins.