Girls... who have you felt understands you the best?

[ColeMC01]

@Emerald Good pick up= Development of charisma, confidence, humor, independence, strength etc

Charisma, confidence, humor, independence, strength etc = The equivalent of perfectly sized tits and ass in terms of attractiveness for a guy.

Maybe this is a more simple to understand language for you girls

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I guess I would be a bit surprised if there was a genuine deep bonding there. I know I couldn't really open up to a man in that head-space, as it would feel emotionally unsafe and frustrating because he wouldn't be able to see me as a person beyond his own agenda. 

"That headspace" << See, you got some negative view of pickup as some fakery.

You're framing this as though pickup teaches men to be dogs. But the reality is that most men are dogs whether they learn pickup or not. Pickup doesn't put the dog in the man. His genetics do that.

The whole point of being good with women is that you make them feel more intimate and safe then untrained guys. The reason PUAs get laid so much more is because they make women feel more intimacy and deeper intimacy than otherwise. Intimacy is something that a guy can learn to create quickly.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

So what is your proposal? That men don't train to get better with women?

Do what you want. If that is what helps you then do that. But if a woman says she doesn't find a deep bonding experience in this pickup culture, please don't deny her view. 

Learn to embrace how women look at dating just as you would want women to understand how men look at it. 

And if you don't want to embrace, leave it be, but don't deny how a woman sees it. 

 

[ColeMC01]

@Leo Gura

Leave them dude, they are so disillusional , unconscious  and in denial about what they want that it is a waste of time to explain it to them. Their advice caused me a lot of suffering and so has to many more guys.

They can complain all they want, most of them have fallen hard for a player kind of guy in their lives and now are butt hurt about it and in denial.

Edited January 17, 2021 by ColeMC01

[mandyjw]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So what is your proposal? That men don't train to get better with women?

The problem probably lies in differences in the definition and the measurement of "better with women."

[Emerald]

Just now, ColeMC01 said:

@Emerald Good pick up= Development of charisma, confidence, humor, independence, strength etc

Charisma, confidence, humor, independence, strength etc = The equivalent of perfectly sized tits and ass in terms of attractiveness for a guy.

Maybe this is a more simple to understand language for you girls

I do understand the idea. But this frames female sexuality in the same framework as male sexuality, when female sexuality is very different.

Therein lies the problem with pick-up as a perspective, it projects the rules of male sexuality onto female sexuality. And this creates a distorted view of female sexuality that is workable... but not rooted in truth.

[Abdelghafar]

Me reading this thread:

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

"That headspace" << See, you got some negative view of pickup as some fakery.

You're framing this as though pickup teaches men to be dogs. But the reality is that most men are dogs whether they learn pickup or not.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm also talking about the drive towards becoming confident, charismatic, etc.

If a man feels like, "I have to have x,y,z qualities to attract women", then he will often write over his natural qualities in favor of whatever 'x,y,z' qualities are.

This is what i meant. You can pick up on this energy of men wearing an armor where they try to embody qualities that aren't necessarily a natural expression of their core personality. But because they feel like they need these techniques to be attractive to women, they hide themselves away underneath an armor of masculine virtue.

You can really pick up on the intuitive 'scent' of this quality. You have it too.

[ColeMC01]

@Emerald LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Nothing in dating has NOTHING to do with truth. It is ALL selfish shit based on survival.

Also when you say that guys should not do pick up if they suck with girls is the equivalent of a guy telling a girl not put on make up or do surgery if her face is unattractive. It is pure bullshit. Those same guys would be willing to sleep with that girl 10 times more if she did surgery just like girls would be willing to sleep with a shy nerd 10 times more if he grows from pick up the traits i mentioned above.

A better way to complain about pick up should be: Do it in a more holistic way where you take into account somewhat the female agenda, do not sleep and date girls in relationships and have some basic respect for women. But saying not to do pick up is plain stupid.

No one wants to live in a world where some angry incel that is frustrated with the world because he cannot get laid shoots the mall where you go on the weekends. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If a man feels like, "I have to have x,y,z qualities to attract women", then he will often write over his natural qualities in favor of whatever 'x,y,z' qualities are.

This is what i meant. You can pick up on this energy of men wearing an armor where they try to embody qualities that aren't necessarily a natural expression of their core personality. But because they feel like they need these techniques to be attractive to women, they hide themselves away underneath an armor of masculine virtue.

You can really pick up on the intuitive 'scent' of this quality. You have it too.

It's sort of like you're saying, don't practice piano because you're not perfect and natural at it.

Guys need a mechanism for getting better with women. Pickup is that mechanism. You can criticize it, but then you need to invent a better mechanism that actually works for guys.

The problem is that what women think will work for guys -- does not work! It's like telling a lion to eat tofu. Sounds nice in theory but doesn't work in practice because he's a lion.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, ColeMC01 said:

@Emerald LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Nothing in dating has NOTHING to do with truth. It is ALL selfish shit based on survival.

Also when you say that guys should not do pick up if they suck with girls is the equivalent of a guy telling a girl not put on make up or do surgery if her face is unattractive. It is pure bullshit. Those same guys would be willing to sleep with that girl 10 times more if she did surgery just like girls would be willing to sleep with a shy nerd 10 times more if he grows from pick up the traits i mentioned above.

A better way to complain about pick up should be: Do it in a more holistic way where you take into account somewhat the female agenda, do not sleep and date girls in relationships and have some basic respect for women. But saying not to do pick up is plain stupid.

No one wants to live in a world where some angry incel that is frustrated with the world because he cannot get laid shoots the mall where you go on the weekends. 

I didn't say that men shouldn't do pick up. That's a strawman. I would probably do some pick up if I were a man. 

I merely said that pick-up only works on a percentage of the the female population and that it's not universal.

But my deeper point is that the way that pick up presents female sexuality is a distortion... a workable distortion that can help men get laid. But it is still a distortion and should not be confused for accuracy. And this distortion gets in the way of deeper bonding experiences between men and women.

 

[ColeMC01]

@Emerald There are different kinds of the traits based on the person.

Some people have chill relaxed confidence, some people have very in your face vibrant confidence, some people have straight up arrogance.

Some people like dark humor, some intellectual humor, some pop culture humor etc

Some people are independent because they have a lot of people in their life so they are not clingy about an individual person, some people are independent because they love their job/career, some people are independent because they are introverts who love their own company more than anything.

Some people are assertive to get something they want, some people are assertive when you cross their boundaries, some people are assertive because they enjoy the feeling of power than comes from it.

Some people are sexual from the start, some flirt a bit before becoming sexual, some are more random about it.

So there is a lot of personal customization regarding the traits Leo mentioned that will depend on the person. Compare James Bond with Tyler Durden from Fight Club with Stiflerfrom american pie . VERY DIFFERENT people but they all have the pick up "qualities" for the most part.

[Leo Gura]

To be clear, many guys who get into pickup abuse it and don't give a shit about women.

I'm just saying that pickup can be done in more conscious ways and the fact is that it works and it's not going away because men struggle with getting laid more than ever. So my solution is to make pickup more conscious and healthy.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's sort of like you're saying, don't practice piano because you're not perfect and natural at it.

Guys need a mechanism for getting better with women. Pickup is that mechanism. You can criticize it, but then you need to invent a better mechanism that actually works for guys.

I am fine with men using pick-up to get laid. And I do understand the efficacy of having such a mechanism.

But understand that it does come at a significant cost to intimacy and organic relationship growth... which is what women usually care about and feel satisfied by.

Pick-up from the female perspective is like the fast food of sex and relationships. It can taste okay and fill you up a bit. But the real sustenance comes from the ability for things to happen organically over the course of time. And I have personally found that starting things out on a sexual note seriously impedes that organic process.

The relationship quality difference is the difference between the waxy chocolates they sell at the dollar store during the holidays and hand-crafted gourmet truffles made from cacao beans found in the depths of the Amazon. It takes time and pick-up is immediate and fast.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But understand that it does come at a significant cost to intimacy and organic relationship growth... which is what women usually care about and feel satisfied by.

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

Maybe that way is getting rid of the sole intention of getting her in your bed.

That should not be the sole intention. My intention was always to find a good girlfriend. Getting her in bed was just a means to that end.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

To be clear, many guys who get into pickup abuse it and don't give a shit about women.

I'm just saying that pickup can be done in more conscious ways.

See, to be fair and honest, I might be attracted to a guy who is into pickup stuff, I'm not denying the attraction but I don't want to feel used, you see what I mean? I want a deep bonding experience lasting a long time and that I don't find in the pickup men and this is my honest opinion. 

Not trying to chide you in any way and I apologize if I got under your skin or something, but it's my POV and the way I view it because of my personal experience and I don't want it to be invalidated because it stems from experience. I feel these men screw my view of my own sexuality. 

 

[Emerald]

17 minutes ago, Khr said:

I feel that whenever girls hear about pickup, they assume it’s just  this asshole guy whose agenda is just to bang a lot of women. In reality, often it is just regular guys who don’t have any experience with women and just want to get a girlfriend. I’ve seen guys like that at work, they are extremely shy and some basic pickup may be life changing for them. I feel bad for them, often they are really sweet guys, I think it is especially a problem in North America - I think it is because of the way high school is structured and they end up not having enough close exposure to women. Often they just end up with that one girl long term or it’s one of the next few girls they end up with.

I feel it would help a lot if the word “pickup” would get replaced by some other word. I feel the word “pickup” is triggering. 

I do understand that it is a lot of guys who just want to get some success with women. This is why I have no issue with pick-up being used for those purposes. I probably would try out pick-up if I were a man.

What I am saying is that pick-up creates a distorted image of female sexuality... just one that is more workable for the agenda of getting laid. So, it is only the misrepresentation of the female experience that is unnerving to me.

But I also think it's important to get men to realize that their notions of pick-up can write over the actuality of female sexual experience. And this will stand in the way of deeper bonding experiences.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Khr said:

But it is your choice whether you get used or not. You need to develop a good judgement of character, learn what techniques they use, it is your job to educated yourself to spot genuine men.

It's not easy though. There's no guarantee with such things. There's no guarantee with the phone I buy, it might break tomorrow despite the company's assurances, much less guarantee with men. 

 

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

My attraction comes from the months before that happens. 

I have to be attracted to a man BEFORE I have sex with him. And the quickness of pick-up doesn't give me the time I need to determine that. 

As I've said, it's usually a few months before organic attraction arises... if it will arise at all.

You have to watch a man when he's not watching you to know what a man is really made of. And this comes only from interacting with him often. You won't get very much information the real man if he's trying to do the mating dance at you. You certainly wouldn't get enough information to know if you're compatible or have chemistry with him.