Girls... who have you felt understands you the best?

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, peqkno said:

 

@Emerald That metaphor made a lot of sense to me. I find your advice/replies on any topics here thorough and thoughtful (from my perspective), so I don’t want to go through the same questions you answered in other threads.

Thus:

So regarding the female experience / life as a female: what’s something you haven’t / haven’t seen discussed on this forum? Maybe sth you feel strongly about and/or 

@everyone else  If you have sth like that, you can of course share as well.

 

If that’s too broad of a question for now, what advice would you give your 20 years old self regarding femininity/living as a woman in 21st century society? (Asking for my gf.) Maybe some things you found important learning about (feminism, divine feminine, ... idk). 

 

If even that’s too broad, I’ll try to come up with some good targeted questions later. Hard to ask about what idk idk.

 

Thank you. 

So I second EVERYTHING that @soos_mite_ah just said above. It really sums it up well.

Now, I am 31 years old (about 10 years older than her) and I wish I had known about all these things back then. It has taken me a long time to work through internalized misogyny.

But I would just add on these couple things that really messed me up for a while. Mind you, your gf is 20 in 2021, while I was 20 in 2009. A lot of things have changed since then in terms of the cultural landscape. So she may already know these things...

First off, I wish I would have known more about female anatomy to guard against misinformation.

For example, there was a general belief back when I was 20 (and before) that the number of times a woman had sex impacted the tightness of her vagina. But this is not true. The vagina is a muscle not a membrane. It isn't something that gets stretched out once and that's it. I remember me and my bf at the time being very concerned that sex would make us loose and thus undesirable. So, it gave us the sense that the more we had sex, the less desirable we were.

Secondly, I wish I would have realized that the number of sexual partners that I have doesn't diminish my worth as a person nor does it diminish anyone else's worth as a person. 

When I was 20, I had only been with one guy... which I prided myself on. And I would secretly slut shame other girls/women (in my head) who were more promiscuous. Then, after 4 years together we broke up, and I had a brief promiscuous phase. I slept with 6 guys in 3 month... and 4 of those happened in two weeks.

I felt very out of control of my boundaries and sexual behavior because I had a lot of sexual repression... due to the internal slut shaming.

And it was a nightmare to me because I had gotten into this cycles of feeling very down on myself and like I'm not worthwhile. Then a guy would want to "hang out" with me, and I would convince myself that I would be able to set my boundaries and just enjoy the company. Then, once things turned sexual I was feeling so lonely and worthless (and also just genuinely liking sex), that I wouldn't set those boundaries and I would have sex, and feel very brief feelings of being worthwhile because the guy was enjoying me.

But immediately afterward, I would feel even lower in myself than before because of slut-shaming myself. Then the cycle would begin again, where a man would show me interest and want to spend time with me and want to sleep with me. And this would give me a brief reprieve from the feelings of loneliness and unworthiness. And then afterward, I would sink even lower in myself. And the cycle would start again.

And this was all because of feelings that my primary value was in my ability to please men sexually. And also in the simultaneous belief that women who redeem that value by having sex with a man are depreciating their value every time.

So, it was this Catch 22 of a situation where I wanted to be valued for my sexuality as that was how I fathomed of the primary value of women (because I didn't like women/femininity much otherwise)... BUT if I basked in that value, it diminished it.

It left me feeling like my sexuality didn't belong to me. And that there was simply no space for genuine sexual expression because the rules made it impossible for my sexuality to exist because of that Catch 22 situation. 

So, bottom line...

- Know female anatomy to avoid misinformation that seeks to disempower women and discourage female sexual agency

- Stop slut-shaming (internally and externally)

- Notice and weed out internalized misogyny

- The number of partners you've had has no impact on your worth as a human being

- Your worth is based on a lot more than your ability to please men sexually

- Men (young and old) who only value you based only on your ability to please them sexually are either immature and/or inexperienced. Mature men will value you as a whole person.

- You don't have to be submissive or self-deprecating to attract a man

- Your looks shouldn't determine your societal value... so reject it when people imply that

- Setting boundaries is very important

- It's okay to have a variety of sexual experiences as long as you really want them

- Admit to yourself what you really want... be brutally honest with yourself about that

- Misogynistic men are misogynistic because they either see you as having power over them OR are afraid you are superior to them... not because they actually see you as inferior.

- Certain men may seek to devalue you because they feel unworthy of your attention. So, they try to take your self-esteem down a peg to try to even the playing field in their favor.

- Femininity runs a LOT deeper than the societal conception of Femininity

- Femininity is not weak or trite. It is quite radical and subversive of the status quo. 

- Seek solidarity with other women.

- Don't buy into the narrative in 95% of teen movies where it's "feminine popular dumb girls vs nerdy intelligent cool girls".

- Question any and all beliefs you have about womanhood, femininity, manhood, an masculinity

- So much more...

[Leo Gura]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:16 AM, Emerald said:

If you want understanding for pick-up purposes, ask a pick-up artist. You can find a sizable minority of the female population (probably 25%-30%) who are open to pick-ups using those methods.

This is not correct. All women are attracted to the principles that pickup teaches. 100% -- assuming they are straight and feminine. It just needs to be executed naturally, and of course this still don't not guarantee some 100% conversion rate. Conversation rate in all things is usually low. It's silly to expect to sleep with 100% of people you meet. Conversion rate in most sales situations is <1%.

Of course pickup is NOT a pure understanding of women. It's an understanding of how to attract and sleep with women. These are two very different things.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

This is not correct. All women are attracted to the principles that pickup teaches. 100%. It just needs to be executed naturally, and of course this still don't not guarantee some 100% conversion rate. Conversation rate in all things is usually low.

I'm sorry Leo. But this simply isn't true. 

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald Your thinking about what pickup is, is limited. Given your limited picture of what it is, your perspective is valid. But pickup is not what you think it is. It's very hard to understand it from a woman's POV.

All women are attracted to confident, humorous, outgoing, and strong men who can stimulate them emotionally and are good leaders. The function of pickup when done properly is to teach guys how to become such men. It's not about pickup lines.

[soos_mite_ah]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

All women are attracted to confident, humorous, outgoing, and strong men who can stimulate them emotionally and are good leaders. The function of pickup when done properly is to teach guys how to become such men. It's not about pickup lines.

I mean to a lot of guys on this forum, I would say this is true and a lot of pick up from what I understand does try to make one build these things. But often times pick up can be limited in the way that it is often practiced and it can go wrong in so many different ways. It's really all about how you go about developing and expressing these qualities and there is a wide range of ways to do so ranging from healthy and constructive to totally manipulative to the point where you look like the romantic equivalent of a used car sales man. That's what you have to be careful of. 

Sure you aren't going to get with every girl you talk to and have a 100% success rate (and that's fine it isn't anything on you) but if you have to approach 50-100 different women, maybe it would be a good idea to see where you can improve so that it's more efficient and so you aren't wasting your time. 

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald Your thinking about what pickup is, is limited. Given your limited picture of what it is, your perspective is valid. But pickup is not what you think it is. It's very hard to understand it from a woman's POV.

It's actually much easier to understand from a woman's POV because we are the audience of the pick-up attempts. And we're in the body/vehicle and know how it feels and what works and what doesn't.

When male dating coaches and PUAs tell their audiences that you can't ask women about what they attracts them (i.e. Don't ask a fish how to catch them), it is just for business purposes. Otherwise, female dating coaches would put them out of business.

And when PUAs say that these techniques work on all women, this is likewise a marketing strategy. It's not as appealing to say that 25% of women will be open to these techniques. It's much more effective to say "These techniques are universal and CAN work on every woman."

It's important to be able to distinguish between marketing techniques and truth.

I've been on the receiving end of pick-up since I was 12... over a decade before you even cracked the book open on the topic.

Sure. There are certain qualities a man can have that have a more universal appeal. 

Yet, even these don't work on every woman. For example, I'm generally not very attracted to men who exude confidence. When I see a man with this quality, I don't see a match with me. I am generally attracted to men who are more reserved and who don't show their sexuality on their sleeves. There is more chemistry there.

From the inside of the female vehicle, I can tell you that your ideas of female sexuality may work for the purposes of pick-up on some women... and a sizable minority of women at that.

But most women will auto-filter you out if you're using pick-up techniques... because women have seen it all before. 

That's why your conversion rate is low. You have to play the numbers game because it doesn't work on every woman. And it isn't just the fact that you personally won't appeal to every woman... the techniques you use won't work on the majority of the female population. They only work on a percentage of the female population.

[Preety_India]

10 hours ago, peqkno said:

If that’s too broad of a question for now, what advice would you give your 20 years old self regarding femininity/living as a woman in 21st century society? (Asking for my gf.) Maybe some things you found important learning about (feminism, divine feminine, ... idk). 

 

Just trying to be honest. No hate. No offense. 

I'd have told my 20 year old self not to take men too seriously and not waste too much time with men. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

But often times pick up can be limited in the way that it is often practiced and it can go wrong in so many different ways.

Definitely

[Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is not correct. All women are attracted to the principles that pickup teaches. 100% -- assuming they are straight and feminine. It just needs to be executed naturally, and of course this still don't not guarantee some 100% conversion rate. Conversation rate in all things is usually low. It's silly to expect to sleep with 100% of people you meet. Conversion rate in most sales situations is <1%.

Of course pickup is NOT a pure understanding of women. It's an understanding of how to attract and sleep with women. These are two very different things.

Yes. That's exactly my point.

Men who subscribe to these notions tend to think that they are getting a pure understanding of women. And they come to believe in a reductive caricature of the female experience and of female sexuality. 

They don't understand that they are simply getting an understanding of how to get laid with SOME women. They think they are getting some universal truth about women, and this is the problem.

And when you go to correct them, they just go "Women don't know better. Don't ask a fish how to catch them." and listen to other men with a similarly caricatured view.

And with that caricatured view, you can certainly get laid.

But if you want to cultivate a deep level of intimacy with a woman (which is what most women are looking for)... these caricatures will get in the way. 

[soos_mite_ah]

Also another thing I would tell my younger self is not to be self conscious about having boundaries and having standards. Sure having boundaries and standards will scare a lot of guys away and many won't be attracted to you but it will be a good way to weed out low quality guys from high quality guys. Fuck boys want instant gratification, literally they want to go in and out. If you have some standards, boundaries, hobbies, and interests, they will stay the hell away from you, not because you aren't desirable but because you aren't easy to manipulate, you aren't desperate for a man because you have your own life, and because you hold him to a higher standard of how he should treat you. That's not a bad thing, in fact it's really good because you'll get quality > quantity. You might not get a lot of approaches or a lot of attention but in the long term it will save you a lot of headache and fuckery. 

Growing up I had guys literally walk away from me once they realized that I was smart. When I was younger, I was self conscious of it even though I knew that what they were doing was messed up and misogynistic. I still encounter situations now where I tell a guy what I'm majoring in and I can see him getting freaked out a little but I don't feel bad about it at all. Now it's like the process of elimination. 

I would tell my younger self not to compare looks because the vast majority of people don't care, men or women. I would tell her that there are numerous different forms of beauty and there isn't one mold. Who someone thinks is beautiful can range from person to person and from society to society. Embrace the beauty and the desirability that you already have and it will flow from you even more because of the extra confidence. Flowers are beautiful and so are Christmas lights and they look nothing a like. And even if some people or society prefer the flowers, that doesn't mean the Christmas lights are any less beautiful. The presence of one woman's beauty and femininity is not an absence of your own even if your form of beauty and femininity vastly differs from her. And sometimes that preference that is pushed by society can be due to racism and a plethora of other issues. It isn't anything that's on you. I'm mainly speaking about this as a woman of color who was ridiculed for her features because of the Eurocentric standard of beauty. I remember when I was around 13 years old, a guy I liked told me to my face that he "didn't date brown girls." I remember back then how painful that was. I had another situation with a different guy play out like this a year ago and I had this attitude of "damn I dodged a bullet, I wouldn't want to date a guy like that in the first place" and there was no pain involved in my end. Some annoyance maybe but I didn't cry myself to sleep like the last time. 

In other words I would tell her to not doubt her own desirability and that it's ok to be patient instead of rushing into something with someone who might not be good for you.  And to me, part of femininity is understanding your own desirability and taking care of yourself mentally, physically, and emotionally.  

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's actually much easier to understand from a woman's POV because we are the audience of the pick-up attempts. And we're in the body/vehicle and know how it feels and what works and what doesn't.

No, because you in fact have no experience attracting and seducing women. So you don't know what that takes, nor do you care to know.

Quote

When male dating coaches and PUAs tell their audiences that you can't ask women about what they attracts them (i.e. Don't ask a fish how to catch them), it is just for business purposes. Otherwise, female dating coaches would put them out of business.

No. I'm not a dating coach and I don't earn any money coaching people on pickup stuff. But I can tell you from lots of personal experience that a woman will never give a guy good advice for how to attract and sleep with women. Because attraction is deeply counter-intuitive and women themselves are deeply in denial and unconscious of what attracts them and what makes them open their legs.

Women love to tell themselves all sorts of fantasies about what they are attracted to, when in fact they are attracted to the opposite. They will say stuff like, "Just be yourself. Just be a nice guy." and then they end up sleeping with the biggest asshole in the room.

A fish cannot tell you how to catch it because it has not invested any time and has no experience catching itself. The first doesn't actually know what catches it. And even if it did, it would not be in the fish's survival interest to disclose such information.

Quote

And when PUAs say that these techniques work on all women, this is likewise a marketing strategy. It's not as appealing to say that 25% of women will be open to these techniques. It's much more effective to say "These techniques are universal and CAN work on every woman."

Just because a thing works on all women does not mean you will sleep with every woman. Not even close.

Your 25% number is just something you invented to make yourself feel good. Women love to believe, "That pickup stuff will never work on me. I'm too smart for that. It only works on dumb girls with low self-esteem." Except you're not too smart for it because you are attracted to certain things and if a guy meets that criteria you will be attracted to him regardless of how he got there. You don't care about how he got there. You don't know how he got there. All you see is the end result.

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It's important to be able to distinguish between marketing techniques and truth.

Yes, of course. But I'm not marketing to anyone here.

Quote

I've been on the receiving end of pick-up since I was 12... over a decade before you even cracked the book open on the topic.

Yeah, and every guy you ever slept with met the standard criteria and principles of pickup, regardless of whether he learned pickup or not.

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Yet, even these don't work on every woman. For example, I'm generally not very attracted to men who exude confidence. When I see a man with this quality, I don't see a match with me. I am generally attracted to men who are more reserved and who don't show their sexuality on their sleeves. There is more chemistry there.

People are attracted to different styles and flavors. Hence there cannot ever be a 100% conversion rate. Pickup takes all this into account. You are not meant to mesh well with all guys.

Quote

But most women will auto-filter you out if you're using pick-up techniques... because women have seen it all before. 

It does not matter what you've seen before -- a high-value guy is a high-value guy. You're assuming the guy is faking his value, but I'm talking about a guy who is not faking his value.

This is like a guy saying, "Well, I've seen big tits before, so big tits won't work on me again." They work every time. And they even work when they are fake or some push-up bra.

Quote

That's why your conversion rate is low. You have to play the numbers game because it doesn't work on every woman. And it isn't just the fact that you personally won't appeal to every woman... the techniques you use won't work on the majority of the female population. They only work on a percentage of the female population.

No. The conversion rate is low because all dating is a numbers game. You play this numbers game your entire life. When you go on Tinder, there is your numbers game.

Yes, of course I personally won't appeal to every woman. In fact, this is a common mistake newbie PUAs make -- trying to appeal to every woman. A guy will be much more successful with women if he aims for 33% of women hating him, 33% of women being indifferent to him, and 33% of women loving him. This polarization is key. Just like in business you must appeal to a specific audience, not everyone under the sun.

Notice that you are the one who is setting up this 100% conversion rate standard. But that's a strawman. Nowhere near this standard needs to be met. Baseball is not discredited simply because no one has a 100% bating average. And baseball bating principles don't merely work on 25% of the balls, they work on 100% of the balls. But you will never hit 100%.

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Men who subscribe to these notions tend to think that they are getting a pure understanding of women. And they come to believe in a reductive caricature of the female experience and of female sexuality.

Pickup is highly self-biased, because it's designed to satisfy the male survival agenda. No doubt about that. Exactly the same way that female dating and relationship advice is highly self-biased. Women do not care about a pure understanding men and their sexual needs. Women only care about their female needs.

No woman I've ever met has ever cared about understanding pickup. And hence no woman does. Because in general, no human cares about a pure understanding of anything. Human desires for understanding are usually highly limited to their personal survival needs. Hence the whole tragedy of mankind.

[SamC]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, because you in fact have no experience attracting and seducing women. So you don't know what that takes, nor do you care to know.

No. I'm not a dating coach and I don't earn any money coaching people on pickup stuff. But I can tell you from lots of personal experience that a woman will never give a guy good advice for how to attract and sleep with women. Because attract is deeply counter-intuitive and women themselves are deeply in denial and unconscious of what attracts them and what makes them open their legs.

Women love to tell themselves all sorts of fantasies about what they are attracted to, when in fact they are attracted to the opposite. They will say stuff like, "Just be yourself. Just be a nice guy." and then they end up sleeping with the biggest asshole in the room.

Just because a thing works on all women does not mean you will sleep with every woman. Not even close.

Your 25% number is just a something you invented to make yourself feel good. Women love to believe, "That pickup stuff will never work on me. I'm too smart for that." Except you're not too smart for it because you are attracted to certain things and if a guy meets that criteria you will be attracted to him regardless of how he got there. You don't care about how he got there. You don't know how he got there. All you see is the end result.

Yes, of course. But I'm not marketing to anyone here.

Yeah, and every guy you ever slept with met the standard criteria and principles of pickup, regardless of whatever he learned pickup or not.

People are attracted to different styles and flavors. Hence there cannot ever be a 100% conversion rate. Pickup takes all this into account. You are not meant to mesh well with all guys.

It does not matter matter what you've seen before -- a high-value guy is a high-value guy. You're assuming the guy is faking his value, but I'm talking about a guy who is not faking his value.

This is like a guy saying, "Well, I've seen big tits before, so big tits won't work on me again." They work every time. And they even work when they are fake or some push-up bra.

No. The conversion rate is low because all dating is a numbers game. You play this numbers game your entire life. When you go on Tinder, there is your numbers game.

Yes, of course I personally won't appeal to every woman. In fact, this is a common mistake newbie PUAs make -- trying to appeal to every woman. A guy will be much more successful with women if he aims for 33% of women hating him, 33% of women being indifferent to him, and 33% of women loving him. This polarization is key. Just like in business you must appeal to a specific audience, not everyone under the sun.

Notice that you are the one who is setting up this 100% conversion rate standard. But that's a strawman. Nowhere near this standard needs to be met.

I'm curios @Leo Gura

Is it possible for woman to understand what attracts them? If not, why is that the case? What's the difference between men and woman here? I mean guys seem to be pretty okey at pin pointing what will make him attract attracted.. why are girls pinpointing so off?

Edited January 17, 2021 by SamC

[StarStruck]

One of the best things I have done recently is not listen to women. Yes, listen to them, but don't take them serious. You just have to deliver what they really want deep down.

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, SamC said:

I'm curios @Leo Gura

Is it possible for woman to understand what attracts them? If not, why is that the case? What's the difference between men and woman here? I mean guys seem to be pretty okey at pin pointing what will make him attract attracted.. why are girls pinpointing so off?

Of course it's possible. They just rarely want to. Women have little interest in sitting down and logically analyzing and deconstructing their attraction. Because it ruins the illusion.

Girls have a vague right-idea of what attracts them: humor, confidence, masculine energy, leadership, strength, dominance, charisma, social status, authenticity, etc. But they will not tell you how to create these things. They just expect you to naturally have it and never work to create it. They tend to think that if you work to create it you are doing something wrong, unnatural, and cheating. And that's because plenty of guys do fake those things to lure in women, and of course women hate that because they don't want the fake thing, they want the real thing. But they have no interest in knowing what it takes to create the real thing. They just know they want it. They don't care how the guys gets it. And they are not very tolerant or understanding of the guy's struggle/attempts to create it. The attempts are framed as fakery and cheating -- not genuine desire for growth. So when a guy fucks up the pickup, the girl doesn't think, "Oh, he's doing this to try to become a better man but he failed here", she thinks, "This guy is a fake creep loser trying to get in my pants. This is gross and horrible".

They want the sausage but they don't want to know how its made.

[Moon]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No woman I've ever met has ever cared about understanding pickup. And hence no woman does. 

What? ??

PICK ME!! Jk ?

I have seen a few women on here care without much bias, I think those who are left brained especially. E.g @modmyth I think. 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Moon said:

What? ??

PICK ME!! Jk ?

I have seen a few women on here care without much bias, I think those who are left brained especially. E.g @modmyth I think.

It's impossible to understand pickup without many hours doing it. Sorry. Whatever understanding you have is paper thin.

[Preety_India]

 

Why should a woman care about understanding pickup when those who wish to pick her up don't care about her needs? 

 

[Moon]

@Leo Gura It's impossible for you to fully understand women then and the struggles they go through? 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Why should a woman care about understanding pickup when those who wish to pick her up don't care about her needs?

Right.

And why should a man care about understanding women when women don't care about his needs?

And why should anyone care about understanding anyone else when it doesn't directly serve their needs?

Bottom line: why should anyone be selfless when the best thing is to be selfish?

TA-DA! The human condition