what are dreams ?

[Someone here]

 

Here is the thing with materialism and 'brains 'when it comes to dreams... Let's suppose someone is dreaming.. The dreamer is seeing the dream..only the dreamer have access to the dream. If you look around the person you don't see anything.. He is normally laying in his bed.. Yet from his pov he is technically in a different universe!. Suppose we cut open his skull while he is dreaming.... What do you expect to find? You ain't gonna find his dream inside the skull lol .. You will simply find a dead piece of flesh (the brain)..
So the dream is not found in the body in any place.... So Who's seeing? There has to be a non physical aspect.. Maybe the soul? And where is it occurring? Maybe dreams are a different realms. There is a deep mystery happening here. You are unconscious in your bed and simultaneously visiting invisible realms lol

https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/are-dreams-incompatible-with-materialism/

Edited January 15, 2021 by Someone here

[Someone here]

19 hours ago, LastThursday said:

So whatever generates dreams is also generating your waking state right now

Which is what? 

 

19 hours ago, xxxx said:

Could it be that we intrinsically emit certain transmitters, that develop a unique frequency with our already existing memories, and that helps us sense it through dreams? 

Our eyes send the signals to the brain, and hence, we are able to see. Perhaps, dreams can be an amalgam of our sensory organs reacting together, through memory - and we are living that too - but in the other  ‘dream-like’ sense? 

The main point is how it's getting a built? You notice dreams are phenomenally identical to so called waking reality??  It's a complete reality. How is it that your memories or whatever can materialize?   

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

That's because when you go to sleep, the "I" that was you in the waking dream gets smaller than it is in the waking dream. It becomes smaller and merges with the cells of the brain and occupies one cell to dream in. So you actually change sizes and become smaller, and that's why your brain (the dream world) becomes so big.

Lol you are saying the dream is physically located in the neurons?  And how do you see it? The eyes are not located there?  And where do you find this change of size..from outside perspective you are just laying in your bed. From objective pov the dream doesn't even happen. It's a hallucination. But unlike with taking psychedelics you see hallucinations in your visual fields merged with physical reality.. But in the case of dreams.. The entire physical world gets erased and you find yourself inside the hallucination like a hologram. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Someone here

[Someone here]

18 hours ago, Fran11 said:

Their "substance" is of course Consciousness and their "where" is of course No-where.

 

16 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

You/Infinity

 

15 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Nothing. Nowhere. None of your business. 

Yeah. It doesn't get any better does it? Lol 

[LastThursday]

32 minutes ago, Someone here said:

20 hours ago, LastThursday said:

So whatever generates dreams is also generating your waking state right now

Which is what? 

The problem here is, is that there's nothing more than dream (awake or sleeping). So what you're asking here is to explain the dream in terms of... the dream. It's not all lost though. 

The circularity is the answer. It's a self perpetuating system. The dream creates the dream. There's no beginning or end to it. Or if you prefer it's like zooming into a fractal; it's a self similar system.

The other way to explain it is to say the dream is irreducible. In other words it can't be explained in simpler terms, it is what it is. To explain anything at all, you are effectively reducing it down to words or symbols and applying some sort of algorithm (process, calculation).  Some things in reality can be reduced down, for example the theory of gravity. Other things are impossible. In general it's impossible to explain if an algorithm will produce an answer or not (look up Turing). Some things in maths are impossible to prove. And so on. Prove, explain, calculate, algorithm are all synonyms in this context.

Yet another way to see it is as a groundless relative system. Imagine a system with two parts to it. There is no user manual, so the parts are not well defined, they are free to take any form they want. For example they could look like the Yin Yang symbol with one black part and one white part. But because they're not defined they can change from one moment to the next. But there are some things you can say about this system:

1. There's no gap between the parts. The consequence being that one part is the complement of the other.

2. The two parts make up the entire system. The consequence is that there's nothing beyond or outside of the two parts.

3. The system is free to take up any configuration it likes. The consequence is that it's unbounded (a.k.a. potentially infinite). The other being that it could be potentially in constant flux.

4. The two parts exist, but are not describable in terms of themselves.

So now look around you. Does "the dream" fit the four descriptions above? 

 

[xxxx]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

So Who's seeing? There has to be a non physical aspect

Do you think there's so much of an outside 'happening' as much as it is just 'being'? For example: People who have been blind from birth do not have any visual dreams - they 'dream' to the extent that their 'waking' experience allows them to - through touch, etc. 

What is the extent of this physical, then? 

So, taking the example of blind people here - if I can put it this way: there is some thing that's technically missing in their internal system, and hence, they are unable to perceive the external world visually. So, is their blindness a result of something physical, or something more intrinsic? If we cut open their brain, can we make sense of it? They technically have eyes, but their eyes do not function the same as the sighted people - so, could we term this as a function, altogether? 

Dreams are nothing but a function of this form. As simple a function as eating or breathing. Ask this question to yourself: How does something so invisible like air be necessary for our existence, and, how does it happen? Isn't that as weird as something like a dream? 

At the end of the day, questions regarding the hows and whys of this are pretty much impossible to answer. It's like asking, why does the color pink exist?

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

The main point is how it's getting a built? You notice dreams are phenomenally identical to so called waking reality??  It's a complete reality. How is it that your memories or whatever can materialize?   

Let us take the example of a camera here - isn't the function of a camera the same as a dream? 

So, the question here is:

Where is this entire landscape that is so tangible to us, being stored in such a small device? How is it possible? I may be able to touch the dog in the picture, but it isn't in the actual, real sense. Like dreams, I can deep so dive into the gallery, so as to see the pictures from 2014. The moment is gone, but still it exists. 

Using a crude example here, but nevertheless: the phone is your body - the lens can be used to take pictures in the present sense, yet the gallery is used to 'store' these memories, and once in a while, (take Google photos here for example), there are these creations and animations that this phone makes for us, to relive our times - these are our dreams. Getting back to your question here: do you think these animations are existing outside the phone, or just a function of the phone? They exist within it.

Taking the example of blind people here - say, their lens is shattered, but the phone does all the other things, but without that one function.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by xxxx

[seeking_brilliance]

No separation. 

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Lol you are saying the dream is physically located in the neurons?

And how do you see it?

The eyes are not located there?

There is nothing but the physical world.

How? Idk. But it happens.

And who said the eyes are necessary? The distinction between subject and object is illusory. It's made out of thoughts.

[Someone here]

20 hours ago, LastThursday said:

The problem here is, is that there's nothing more than dream (awake or sleeping). So what you're asking here is to explain the dream in terms of... the dream. It's not all lost though. 

Isn't there a fundamental difference between the waking reality and dreams?  The latter is objective and independently there while dreams are just Your subjective imagination? I mean they do feel the same superficially but don't you believe that the waking world is what's actually "real"? 

 

20 hours ago, LastThursday said:

The circularity is the answer. It's a self perpetuating system. The dream creates the dream. There's no beginning or end to it. Or if you prefer it's like zooming into a fractal; it's a self similar system.

The other way to explain it is to say the dream is irreducible. In other words it can't be explained in simpler terms, it is what it is. To explain anything at all, you are effectively reducing it down to words or symbols and applying some sort of algorithm (process, calculation).  Some things in reality can be reduced down, for example the theory of gravity. Other things are impossible. In general it's impossible to explain if an algorithm will produce an answer or not (look up Turing). Some things in maths are impossible to prove. And so on. Prove, explain, calculate, algorithm are all synonyms in this context.

Yeah I guess it's related to the question of how to define anything at all or how does anything exist at all. And that's a correct description. 

 

20 hours ago, LastThursday said:

There's no gap between the parts. The consequence being that one part is the complement of the other.

2. The two parts make up the entire system. The consequence is that there's nothing beyond or outside of the two parts.

3. The system is free to take up any configuration it likes. The consequence is that it's unbounded (a.k.a. potentially infinite). The other being that it could be potentially in constant flux.

4. The two parts exist, but are not describable in terms of themselves.

So now look around you. Does "the dream" fit the four descriptions above?

Yes dreams fit the four points. Yet waking reality doesn't fit number 3. 

[Someone here]

20 hours ago, xxxx said:

 At the end of the day, questions regarding the hows and whys of this are pretty much impossible to answer. It's like asking, why does the color pink exist?

Why tho? I mean since it exists there has to be a context for its existence.  Maybe "why" is meaningless. Ultimately there is no how or why for things and I recently became conscious that reality is just there the way it is minus all explanations. Because there is nothing outside of reality to be the "why". The why is itself. Yet still stuff can be explained relatively. There might be no absolute why but there are plenty of relative whys. 

20 hours ago, xxxx said:

Let us take the example of a camera here - isn't the function of a camera the same as a dream? 

So, the question here is:

Where is this entire landscape that is so tangible to us, being stored in such a small device? How is it possible? I may be able to touch the dog in the picture, but it isn't in the actual, real sense. Like dreams, I can deep so dive into the gallery, so as to see the pictures from 2014. The moment is gone, but still it exists. 

Using a crude example here, but nevertheless: the phone is your body - the lens can be used to take pictures in the present sense, yet the gallery is used to 'store' these memories, and once in a while, (take Google photos here for example), there are these creations and animations that this phone makes for us, to relive our times - these are our dreams. Getting back to your question here: do you think these animations are existing outside the phone, or just a function of the phone? They exist within it.

Taking the example of blind people here - say, their lens is shattered, but the phone does all the other things, but without that one function

Brilliant analogy. Thank you

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Someone here

[Sempiternity]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Isn't there a fundamental difference between the waking reality and dreams?  The latter is objective and independently there while dreams are just Your subjective imagination? I mean they do feel the same superficially but don't you believe that the waking world is what's actually "real"? 

You're assuming that there is a 'you' and a 'real world'. All there is is dream (consciousness). God dreaming (except there is no separate dreamer, only the dream itself), that's what all this is. When dreaming, you accept that everything is made of dream. What you call the real world is no different, only God has imagined different rules, but it's still all made of Dream/Consciousness/God. 

Maybe watch this to learn more. 

 

[Someone here]

@Sempiternity

Well life is certainly not a dream nor anything you think it is. It just is. 

Leo's right tho.. You can't draw a firm boundaries between dreams and life.. And that's part of the solipsist  confusion that I have.. Is how do you know that your whole life is not one giant ass dream and that you are literally hallucinating the entire fucking universe?.... This doesn't seem answerable to me. It's a tricky fucking devil . So I kinda gave up on that question and resided back to actuality + not knowing. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Someone here

[Vibroverse]

Everything is consciousness. 

Everything is expectation. 

Words don't matter. 

 

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Sempiternity

.. Is how do you know that your whole life is not one giant ass dream and that you are literally hallucinating the entire fucking universe?.... 

Well, sometime It will come the time you have to Accept exactly what you did ?

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Well, sometime It will come the time you have to Accept exactly what you did ?

Well honestly I'm completely comfortable to say that I know absolutely nothing about Jack shit.  But let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Careful with assuming what's true before getting to it. 

[Vibroverse]

Universe is a sort of a dream. 

[Javfly33]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well honestly I'm completely comfortable to say that I know absolutely nothing about Jack shit.  But let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Careful with assuming what's true before getting to it. 

Good that you are honest

Love your new signature btw ?

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

Universe is a sort of a dream. 

Welllllll whatever..... Life is life. Dreams are dreams. Tomato is tomatoes.  To say life is a dream like saying tomatoes are actually potatoes. They are of the same origin but apparently they aren't.  Get that?  Cool. 

Now that doesn't really say anything about anything 

 

[Vibroverse]

Life is consciousness. 

[Someone here]

23 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

There is nothing but the physical world.

How do you know? 

 

23 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

And who said the eyes are necessary? The distinction between subject and object is illusory. It's made out of thoughts.

Just nonsense. You clearly define yourself as the physical body. You don't go around confusing yourself with your mom don't you? 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Someone here