Vegans are Sexy as Fuck!

[Danioover9000]

@Hero in progress

20 hours ago, Hero in progress said:

This post is not for the purpose of what what my man above said. He may use a lot big words and try to discredit the overall message of this post. But ill say it one more time and then im out.  You are a fucking inspiration! dont let these cold fucks make you feel like you are not right to spread veganism as much as you can. It aint about your health, it is practical and it is the future. 

KEEP GOING

 

    Maybe carefully read what I've posted below:

21 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hero in progress

   That's because you post in an informal and organic style so far, and usually in this sub forum there's a higher standard of posting, because we're mainly discussing topics like health, nutrition, diet, overcoming physiological and health issues, which because of how it really effects our bodies, we'd like to communicate in a way that reflects how careful we are to give advice, whether supported by medical/scientific research or is just an opinion. When talking about these issues, it's important that we communicate our information in a way that is not childish because if we have advice that can harm more than hurt, it really does effect the body, positively or negatively.

  In an immature, unpractical, idealistic, unscientific, emotional and attention grabbing framing, discussions about Veganism turn more immature than mature discussions about veganism, yet the original poster might not intend that his/her communication be perceived this way, which is why the moderator suggests this is better under the journaling section.  It's more difficult to have beneficial feedback and corrections under such immature, organic, and informal framing. 

   Most posts in this sub-forum are written within a mature, practical, pragmatic, realistic, scientific and medical frame of mind. Under such framing, we can have serious discussions about health, nutrition and overcoming health issues, and have faster feedback on if any user's advice is harmful or helpful. This is especially important when discussing alternative medicine/related fields not as supported as traditional health/medicinal approaches.

   

   Also, with your attitude, it's much better to post in the journal section, as you won't get penalized for your writing style. Anywhere else you will.

   It's mainly because of your writing style that it's harder for others to consider Veganism seriously, and treat it like a joke.

[Danioover9000]

@Yog

1 hour ago, Yog said:

Hm. I rarely find people that do veganism properly.

I assume its quite difficult to do so, especially if you have an ethical component in it and do not rely on overseas exotic plants. I am quite interested if it is possible to pull it off on local plants and not get nutrient deficient.

Above 80% of vegans I personally have seen look malnourished and borderline sick. Usually something is wrong with their skin, hair, eyes, teeth, bone to muscle structure, cant really put my finger on it.

I guess this is the effect of cutting off animal products and spontaneously replacing them with any plant products they happen to like in order to get filled without doing much if any research.

But some are sexy, yea xD. I don't think it has much to do with veganism though. They just happened to workout a lot, eat properly, do their research, have good body structure, genetic, look pretty and all.

   It's mainly because of the ethical issues that bring about dogmatism around discussing Veganism, in people who only eat plants, and in people who mainly eat everything with plants, meat and carbs. Even fruit only people are not immune to being dogmatic to other groups that're selective in their diet. Under those states, it's easy to rush the transition process from whatever traditional diet you've had to eating plant based diet, and if no care is taken, some end up hurting themselves bad enough for hospitalization.

   Sexiness mostly comes from proper body care, and from genetic variety.

[Danioover9000]

@neutralempty

27 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Yog

"Above 80% of vegans I personally have seen look malnourished and borderline sick. Usually something is wrong with their skin, hair, eyes, teeth, bone to muscle structure, cant really put my finger on it."

Obviously, a lie.

   It depends on how that person is looking after their body. If all they did was plant based only, and very little exercise, low quality sleep, have unhealthy coping mechanisms with physical/mental/emotional stress, Comparing person to person is difficult enough, it gets more difficult comparing group to group health, vegan or otherwise.

   Depending on how you look after yourself, you can still maintain healthy muscle structure and overall body function, even on a plant based. Plant based diets can't save you from you abusing yourself in other way, so watch out.

   Consider that the user is in part of the world where some people have not correctly integrated with a plant-based diet properly, so the user only ends up interacting with just those people.

   

[Yog]

@neutralempty That's my personal observation, that is all it is, its not an objective sample. I've known about 10-20 vegans and met 20+ more.

I don't let it influence my opinion on the topic anyway. Some folk just got too dogmatic and hardcore around it and broke some stuff, which is what @Danioover9000  pointed towards, its not a problem with veganism at all, its more of an identity/ego type of problem.

I've met people that had 0 identity around it and they had the attitude of " just trying out this new thing, if it works cool, if it doesn't we'll make a change". This is the attitude I personally like more, it allows for both the ethical and the nutritional part of the topic to be constantly re-evaluated, you can't easily and efficiently evaluate stuff if you got your identity tied around it.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Yog

[Michael569]

2 hours ago, neutralempty said:

Sure, ofc. Probably from the slums of India or something. That's how they didn't know anything about nutrition

Forgive for saying this but some of your comments seem very naive as if because of lacking general world experience. I am with @Yog that I've seen some extremely unhealthy looking vegans & vegetarians. Pale, skinny, with excessive signs of ageing. I have also seen beautiful and sexy vegan women so there are both. 

If you live in a rich country such as US, it is easy to assume that living this way is the same in the rest of the world. It isn't. It can be extremely tough to be vegan in certain countries such as Eastern Europe, Balcanic regions, South East asia, certain countries of South America, Japan etc. When I visited Philipines for example, being vegan meant eating rice and fruits, now you tell me how long before your body starts breaking down. Japan - there is some tofu yes but generally Japanese have no fruits besides tanderines. It is extremely expensive in there at a level that a bowl of grape costs 30 dollars.  I've visited many of these countries and in some of them it is 50 times more difficult than for example in UK where I live or in States. 

Just something for you to be mindful of. Not all places have an equal starting ground and you need to be appreciative of that. As someone who is in business of helping people restore their health, all I can say that if I was pushing veganism on my clients, I would lose 90% of them. 

Large part of population struggle with paying bills, separating waste, living in sub-optimal living conditions, living in multigenerational houses. If you were to bestow veganism upon these people, it simply wouldn't work. 

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

Forgive for saying this but some of your comments seem very naive as if because of lacking general world experience. I am with @Yog that I've seen some extremely unhealthy looking vegans & vegetarians. Pale, skinny, with excessive signs of ageing. I have also seen beautiful and sexy vegan women so there are both. 

If you live in a rich country such as US, it is easy to assume that living this way is the same in the rest of the world. It isn't. It can be extremely tough to be vegan in certain countries such as Eastern Europe, Balcanic regions, South East asia, certain countries of South America, Japan etc. When I visited Philipines for example, being vegan meant eating rice and fruits, now you tell me how long before your body starts breaking down. Japan - there is some tofu yes but generally Japanese have no fruits besides tanderines. It is extremely expensive in there at a level that a bowl of grape costs 30 dollars.  I've visited many of these countries and in some of them it is 50 times more difficult than for example in UK where I live or in States. 

Just something for you to be mindful of. Not all places have an equal starting ground and you need to be appreciative of that. As someone who is in business of helping people restore their health, all I can say that if I was pushing veganism on my clients, I would lose 90% of them. 

Large part of population struggle with paying bills, separating waste, living in sub-optimal living conditions, living in multigenerational houses. If you were to bestow veganism upon these people, it simply wouldn't work. 

I am not sure how this is related to what @neutralempty said. When we are talking about those unhealthy looking vegans, as Yog refers to them, we are probably talking about people in the western world who will have access to a cheap and healthy vegan diet, no?

Nobody disagrees that adhering to a moral principle will be more or less difficult in different parts of the world, and of course in different times in history. In some countries, it is difficult to survive without exploiting or murdering other human beings. Of course it is due to the fact that we are so civilized that we can now appreciate a higher standard of ethics.

 

But on the other hand, there is a reason why in underdeveloped countries, such as china, african countries and india, a majority of the poor are almost exclusively plant-based. It is precisely because animal products are such a luxury, infact to such a degree that you are now seeing an increase in obesity in China due to people being more financially secure and adopting a more western diet. The poor chinese people who never could have afforded much meat (and were actually healthier and more long-lived for it), now require the amazonian forests to be burned down so that there is enough land to feed all the cows.

 

Explaining to people simple rational ethical principles is not a problem no matter where they live. To what degree they can live according to those principles will vary, as is the case with any other moral problem.

 

However, you reject the foundation of those ethical principles in the first place, so I don't see how it is useful to discuss whether or not some people have an easier time consuming an exclusively plant based diet. The disagreement is about the validity of the ethical stance.

 

Otherwise we are simply discussing whether or not people in china can only eat plants.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Scholar

[Michael569]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

The disagreement is about the validity of the ethical stance.

The initial disagreement was about crusading and religious-like intolerance in the name of moral superiority (e.g. I don't eat animals, you do, hence you are a lesser person). I am not disputing the ethical question here. What we do to animals is barbaric and beyond any excuse and each and every one of us should do as much as possible to get the majority of our calories from plants. If most of us do just that, the world will be a better place. 

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

The initial disagreement was about crusading and religious-like intolerance in the name of moral superiority (e.g. I don't eat animals, you do, hence you are a lesser person). I am not disputing the ethical question here. What we do to animals is barbaric and beyond any excuse and each and every one of us should do as much as possible to get the majority of our calories from plants. If most of us do just that, the world will be a better place. 

I don't know what you mean by crusading and religious like intolerance. Michael, consider the issue of projection here. While for you firmly advocating for veganism might have stemmed from a place of some sort of superiority complex, this is not the case for me, nor for I believe most vegans out there. I personally do this out of compassion, and when I get emotional, it is out of compassion. It is not because I want to make myself feel superior to others, when I talk down to people in terms of this moral problem, it will be in the same way you would talk down to someone who pays for children to be tortured and killed.

When we are talking about health, we have to have a holistic picture of health. Human health and enjoyment is important, but so is that of any other creature. Their health should be as much concern to us, if we view them as an extention of our selves, as that of our children.

 

Whenever there is a new extention of self, a change in societal behavior requires moralistic attitudes. Sure, you could have called the abolitionists crusaders, you could have pointed to them and judged their religious-like intolerance in the name of moral superiority. All of this you could have done, and from your very point of view, it must have been valid to do so. But who would this have helped? Who would it have helped if I had told the soldiers who were fighting the nazi's that they were showing religious-like intolerance and were crusading for the sake of moral superiority? How would this have helped anyone? Please consider this question deeply Michael.

Some vegans might be crusading and might be showing religious-like intolerance in the name of moral superiority. But then, what would you describe yourself us? Someone who is deliberately, in fully conscious of the consequences of his actions, paying for his own brothers and sisters to be subjugated, to be treated like property, to be raped, enslaved and murdered, all for his own comfort.

Michael,

Quote

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Let us say that refusing to pay for the enslavement and killing of your brothers and sisters makes you more intolerant. What is the answer to this? Is it to go back to paying for the enslavement and killing of your brothers and sisters, or is it fixing the deeper issue, the intolerance itself?

My issue here is not simply your behavior, but your very perception of what animals are. They are your brothers and sisters, they are literally like mentally handicapped people. They are not different whatsoever, other than in bodyshape. They are children. But you cannot see this, and this is why you look at those who are so disturbed by their suffering in the way you do.

 

People who hunt serial killers, rapists and murderers are crusading and religious like, in the name of moral superiority, in your own eyes. But consider that they do what they do, that their judgment is so harsh, precisely because they have so much compassion for those who are suffering. If you do not recognize, you will not understand them. The world will change infront of your eyes, and the increasing sensitivity of people on this earth you will confuse for lack of sensitivity.

 

Simply ask yourself this, if it was humans in place of the animals, how would that make you feel. How would you look at people who oppose this? What would you be calling them?

 

The issue of veganism is a moralistic one, a crusade, because we need to a establish a new moral standard. For this to happen, it can only happen if this is taken seriously. And if it is taken seriously, it will be inevitably emotional. We must be moralistic for our brothers and sisters, because that's just how society evolves. Apathy will not create change. And radical change is needed, for the sake ourselves and all of our brothers and sisters. At some point, we must firmly establish: "No, I will not pay for this. This behavior should not be tolerated.", as we did with slavery in the past.

It is precisely because morality is imaginary, that it is so vital that we create it.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Scholar

[Michael569]

@Scholar thank you, I will take some time to think about this. 

[Danioover9000]

 @neutralempty , and @Scholar , you two posts have little to no validity in supporting the main idea of @Hero in progress, that Vegans are sexy as fuck. So far, all your posts are irrelevant towards supporting the OP's position, so irrelevant that @Scholar 's posts only address mostly the morality of changing one's mindset to Veganism, adding in philosophic worded questioning that does little to back up OP's original position, but only serves as a means to discussing Veganism outside the established framework that OP intended this thread for, which is to spread his ideological view of Veganism in a click bait trollish manner that warrents little serious concern, while  @neutralempty 's contribution to this thread is mainly feeding off of OP's inflammatory remarks and ideological spouting that's less severe than OP's, none the less immature and a mismatch to the intended writing style and tone for the majority of this sub-forum, that is to present in clear, scientific and realistic ways to improve one's health and overcome health issues, and to highlight any benefits and dangers of some health practices that require a tighter, more concise writing style most appropriate within this sub-forum, regardless of how relativity and complexities like different mental disorders, the economic costs of plant-based diets per country and culture(which  @Michael569 points out to  @neutralempty and other users, showing how Veganism still has realistic problems in terms of affordability, different levels of adaptability challenges, and effects on the body), different responses from each person's body in regards to diet changes, and so on. 

   In fact, the main gripe I have and @Michael569  has to the OP is in terms of how he presented his thread, in an informal, ideological, immature manner that is trollism and inflammatory towards others who identify as partial Vegans to non-Vegans, in an unclear and unrealistic manner that could do more harm than good towards those who are more serious in improving their diet and health. This is why both of us suggest to the OP to post in the journaling sub-forum, if he wishes to write in such a way. That way OP doesn't waste any of our time here, and he has a place where his writing style is more appropriate. However, OP's attitude remains ideological and triggered, so I don't have any high hopes from him specifically.

    @Scholar , I do enjoy reading through some of your posts, and your attempts to steer the overall thread's main topic of Veganism and sexiness, to talking about the ethical and morality behind Veganism and attempting to build solid points regarding ethics and morality, in fact most of your posts on other sub-forums, you mostly try and discuss outside main frames, which is fine because sometimes this ads more complexity to the discussions, while sometimes it does veer off course into other sub-topics, or to different topics entirely while not keeping to main topics... If you don't mind, could you elaborate on how Veganism is connected to attraction and sexuality, at least to offer some support to OP's weak position? If not, that's okay.

   Instead of countering both me and  @Michael569 's position in terms of ethical consequences, can you instead address our main issue regarding OP'S ideological behavior in this thread? If both of us are wrong, could you elaborate on why we're wrong for calling out OP's behavior? I like to know if I'm actually wrong, and the moderator is wrong, for offering some feedback towards the OP. Thanks.

   

[Scholar]

28 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 @neutralempty , and @Scholar , you two posts have little to no validity in supporting the main idea of @Hero in progress, that Vegans are sexy as fuck. So far, all your posts are irrelevant towards supporting the OP's position, so irrelevant that @Scholar 's posts only address mostly the morality of changing one's mindset to Veganism, adding in philosophic worded questioning that does little to back up OP's original position, but only serves as a means to discussing Veganism outside the established framework that OP intended this thread for, which is to spread his ideological view of Veganism in a click bait trollish manner that warrents little serious concern, while  @neutralempty 's contribution to this thread is mainly feeding off of OP's inflammatory remarks and ideological spouting that's less severe than OP's, none the less immature and a mismatch to the intended writing style and tone for the majority of this sub-forum, that is to present in clear, scientific and realistic ways to improve one's health and overcome health issues, and to highlight any benefits and dangers of some health practices that require a tighter, more concise writing style most appropriate within this sub-forum, regardless of how relativity and complexities like different mental disorders, the economic costs of plant-based diets per country and culture(which  @Michael569 points out to  @neutralempty and other users, showing how Veganism still has realistic problems in terms of affordability, different levels of adaptability challenges, and effects on the body), different responses from each person's body in regards to diet changes, and so on. 

   In fact, the main gripe I have and @Michael569  has to the OP is in terms of how he presented his thread, in an informal, ideological, immature manner that is trollism and inflammatory towards others who identify as partial Vegans to non-Vegans, in an unclear and unrealistic manner that could do more harm than good towards those who are more serious in improving their diet and health. This is why both of us suggest to the OP to post in the journaling sub-forum, if he wishes to write in such a way. That way OP doesn't waste any of our time here, and he has a place where his writing style is more appropriate. However, OP's attitude remains ideological and triggered, so I don't have any high hopes from him specifically.

    @Scholar , I do enjoy reading through some of your posts, and your attempts to steer the overall thread's main topic of Veganism and sexiness, to talking about the ethical and morality behind Veganism and attempting to build solid points regarding ethics and morality, in fact most of your posts on other sub-forums, you mostly try and discuss outside main frames, which is fine because sometimes this ads more complexity to the discussions, while sometimes it does veer off course into other sub-topics, or to different topics entirely while not keeping to main topics... If you don't mind, could you elaborate on how Veganism is connected to attraction and sexuality, at least to offer some support to OP's weak position? If not, that's okay.

   Instead of countering both me and  @Michael569 's position in terms of ethical consequences, can you instead address our main issue regarding OP'S ideological behavior in this thread? If both of us are wrong, could you elaborate on why we're wrong for calling out OP's behavior? I like to know if I'm actually wrong, and the moderator is wrong, for offering some feedback towards the OP. Thanks.

   

As you said, I think the ethical question is central in this regard. I will use the oppurtunities that arise to advocate for my brothers and sisters.

 

In terms of veganism increasing sexual appeal, I think OP just wanted to counterbalance some of the narrative that you hear commonly in the anti-vegan/carnivore movements. You have for example that whole vegan deterioration series from sv3rige. In general, to many people compassion and having a firm ethical stance and confidence can be very appealing. A person can be experienced to be much more attractive if they have more compassion, and a willingness to stand for the weak and exploited. Usually those are attributes that human beings find attractive, they are idealized in our culture.

On the other hand if someone is so apathetic towards his brothers and sisters that he is not even willing to give up his burger to spare them from a tortured life, this can be very unattractive. This kind of selfishness and disregard for those who are vulnerable is in our culture demonized.

 

Of course this is relative to where a person is. To someone who can see animals as their brothers and sisters, someone who does not will be viewed as unnattractive. If someone views animals as inferior individuals, or no individuals at all, this kind of difference in perception, which has quite drastic consequences for moral evaluation, can be experienced as alienating. Imagine for example you had to date a girl who thought it was fine to keep a slave. You would probably experience her as less attractive, while she would experience you as less attractive.

The difference in your morality would be so big that to the girl you would be a constant reminder that how she lives her life is viewed as evil by you. She will probably view you as too sensitive, weak and overly moralistic.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Scholar

[Michael569]

Closing this topic

@Danioover9000 @Scholar @neutralempty guys thanks so much for sharing opinions and thoughts. I definitely have something to think about. The discussions are now going in a circle and this exact topic has been debated many times before with similar results.