Why is sexuality shamed in every culture?

[LordFall]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

If you give powerful men the freedom to do so, they will hoard all the hot women for themselves and turn them into sex slaves. That is survival 101 for a man. Hot women are worth more than their weight in gold. That's why it happens unless there are strict laws and morals against it. And even so -- it still happens today.

Never underestimate how far or how low a man will go for hot sex. If he's told to murder someone, he'll do it.

If you had to put it in spiritual terms, why do you think that is? You made a blog post about how heroin addicts shoot up because that's an instant way to feel that pure love/bliss. Would you say that sex with a hot woman is a shortcut to feel love for themselves? Fascinating to me because it's 100% right. No matter how spiritual I get, its hard to get away from wanting women. I just try to find healthier(hopefully) ways to do it.

How does this fit with spiral dynamics? Is it entirely separate and each stage just has a different way to go about it? Red uses violence for sex, blue uses control, orange uses financial incentives, green uses sexual freedom, etc. What's the highest level this goes? 

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, xxxx said:

Pasting this:

"Courtesans were a part of a thriving culture of women who were learned, witty and wealthy. They wrote and performed music; they painted and danced. They provided men with intelligent conversation, artistic pleasure and sex. Courtesans were  different in many ways. They were not tied down to a husband and could enjoy the attentions of many men whenever they liked. They were also able to speak their minds on any subject, and were able to speak and think freely along any route they chose.

Ancient Greece and ancient Rome both had courtesans as a very prominent part of the way the social fabric operated," Feldman said. "So did most places in the Far East and South Asia, India and Renaissance Italy."

In Renaissance Italy, Feldman's field of study, courtesans maintained salons "where there was elevated conversation about philosophical issues, intellectual issues, theories of life and beauty," she said. "Some [courtesans] were among the best-educated and most literate and cultured women of their time."

"The cultivated courtesan was a very refined, educated type of woman," said Doris Srinivasan, an art historian at the University of Memphis who will present a paper on courtesans in India. "She was respected; she had status; her position was not a degraded one. She was a woman of generosity, of wealth, of integrity, of education."

Sex was also used as a way of gaining power and prestige. Courtesans were usually highly educated and well versed in the etiquette of the time but they were also independent and able to express themselves as no other women could.

A courtesan or lorette was in control of her own life. She decided what lovers to take and she decided what was acceptable for her to do or say. 

It seems as though selling one's body is a small price to pay for the amount of freedom that was allowed to courtesans. The courtesan who, in choosing her profession had already rejected society's constraints and was thus able to live in an open and free manner.

Interesting take.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

If you had to put it in spiritual terms, why do you think that is?

Survival 101

Male deer lock antlers for sex.

Male birds sing pretty songs for sex.

Male humans manipulate, lie, dominate, and kill for sex.

[soos_mite_ah]

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

How does this fit with spiral dynamics? Is it entirely separate and each stage just has a different way to go about it? Red uses violence for sex, blue uses control, orange uses financial incentives, green uses sexual freedom, etc. What's the highest level this goes? 

To me all of the stages except blue is comfortable with sex and doesn't think about repressing sex. 

Red and purple doesn't think about repressing sexuality because they are too impulsive and are too busy seeking pleasure. This impulsivity can come out as violence and complete lack of consideration of any consequences Blue is horrified by this behavior and deems sex as evil. It's important to consider that each higher stage comes from seeing the horrors and limitations from the stage just below it. 

Orange doesn't see the need to moralize sex and see it as a way to blow a load and move on but they aren't as violent or impulsive as red.  Sex isn't necessarily for financial incentives (you can have sex for financial incentives in red or purple for instance to marry higher in your tribe or something but that isn't orange) but sex is transaction, logical, and usually with no strings attached. Because sex isn't moralized, orange is much more sexually free.  Blue shames orange and can't differentiate it from red and purple. It is not uncommon for a lower stage to critique a higher stage because they confuse that higher stage with a stage lower than them.  

Green doesn't moralize sex but rather sees it as emotional and a way of connecting with people. Expressing yourself and connecting with others is good so why would you repress that and deem it a sin. Blue sees this desire to act on emotion as synonymous with being impulsive and destructive like red and purple and like with orange it assumes that green is lower than blue. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[How to be wise]

Freud’s drive theory shows that a man has only two fundamental drives: sex and aggression “fuck it or kill it.” 

Those two drives are wired into him biologically. They will always be there. 

[LordFall]

44 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Freud’s drive theory shows that a man has only two fundamental drives: sex and aggression “fuck it or kill it.” 

Those two drives are wired into him biologically. They will always be there. 

Perhaps this would be true at a red stage? Who knows but as you examine yourself, do you really find this to be true?

Freud has a lot of fascinating theories but over time seems most of them are just that: theories.

[How to be wise]

@LordFall Entire books were written about this theory. Most academic psychologists refer to it in their lectures.

[How to be wise]

16 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@How to be wise

As far as I know psychologists work with different models across the board and I have heard from public figures that Freud's view is outdated.

Of course it’s not 100% accurate, but there is clearly some truth to it. Every man has a strong desire for sex and domination.

[How to be wise]

16 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@How to be wise

I think humans in general can have those tendencies sometimes.

I’ve found that it is predominantly a male thing. You can have a look at history for proof of this.

Even today, outside the west, it is male dominated. Men crave women’s bodies, and they crave power. It will be hard to find a woman that craves a man’s body. And although it may seem to you that women have a lot of power today, one glance outside the western bubble will show you how inferior women are to men.

[How to be wise]

8 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

I don't know if women are inferior, in what regard?

Have you ever been outside the west?

[How to be wise]

6 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@How to be wise

You're talking about societal circumstances. I suspect from the word inferiority, a personal trait.

Lack of power. Decisions are made for them. The vast majority of leadership positions are held by men. If women craved domination and aggression, this simply wouldn’t be possible.

[LfcCharlie4]

On 1/8/2021 at 0:55 AM, soos_mite_ah said:

To me all of the stages except blue is comfortable with sex and doesn't think about repressing sex. 

Red and purple doesn't think about repressing sexuality because they are too impulsive and are too busy seeking pleasure. This impulsivity can come out as violence and complete lack of consideration of any consequences Blue is horrified by this behavior and deems sex as evil. It's important to consider that each higher stage comes from seeing the horrors and limitations from the stage just below it. 

Orange doesn't see the need to moralize sex and see it as a way to blow a load and move on but they aren't as violent or impulsive as red.  Sex isn't necessarily for financial incentives (you can have sex for financial incentives in red or purple for instance to marry higher in your tribe or something but that isn't orange) but sex is transaction, logical, and usually with no strings attached. Because sex isn't moralized, orange is much more sexually free.  Blue shames orange and can't differentiate it from red and purple. It is not uncommon for a lower stage to critique a higher stage because they confuse that higher stage with a stage lower than them.  

Green doesn't moralize sex but rather sees it as emotional and a way of connecting with people. Expressing yourself and connecting with others is good so why would you repress that and deem it a sin. Blue sees this desire to act on emotion as synonymous with being impulsive and destructive like red and purple and like with orange it assumes that green is lower than blue. 

 

This was a really good description. 

Where do we then go with Yellow & Turquoise views? 

Here's Rupert Spira, who makes a great point of 'Don't use sexuality to become more aware, become more aware & use that to enhance your sexuality.'

'Allow your understanding to infiltrate all realms of your experience including your sexuality.' 

'Sexuality will become an expression of, a sharing of, a celebration of this (the Non-Dual) understanding.' 

He also makes it clear that this expression can take the form of celibacy all the way to polyamory, depending on each body / mind. 

To me, this is a very Turquoise view on Sexuality, and what a surprise....it isn't a simple prescription for everyone. 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

59 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Where do we then go with Yellow & Turquoise views? 

Here's Rupert Spira, who makes a great point of 'Don't use sexuality to become more aware, become more aware & use that to enhance your sexuality.'

'Allow your understanding to infiltrate all realms of your experience including your sexuality.' 

'Sexuality will become an expression of, a sharing of, a celebration of this (the Non-Dual) understanding.' 

He also makes it clear that this expression can take the form of celibacy all the way to polyamory, depending on each body / mind. 

To me, this is a very Turquoise view on Sexuality, and what a surprise....it isn't a simple prescription for everyone. 

 

I really like that description. I think the beauty of how yellow and turquoise is still a very small portion of our society is that we are still learning and growing towards those stages slowly but surely. That means that we are still discovering and articulating them in various aspects of our lives.

There is a variation of views when it comes to sexuality within a spiral. And I'm sure that it's no different for yellow and turquoise. This is one higher level view on sexuality among countless we have yet to think up.