Trump Supporters Storming The Capitol! - MAGA Coup Mega-Thread

[Willie]

18 minutes ago, Ryan R said:

It likely won't come out for years but as a strategic security professional I can tell you what the police did (or didn't do.. like beat the crap out of , shoot dead, and arrest alot of people) at the capital was (prehaps poorly) planned. They were almost certainly ordered to put up marginal resistance to the rioters and to continuously fall back if necessary rather than cause harm. This is not because they were, as a group, sympathizers or racists or ordered to do this out of any nefarious purpose.  It was de-escalation of violence, as opposed to escalation and incitement of national-scale violence, plain and simple. The purpose of the inaction of security was nothing less than maintaining broad control of the nation.

They gave up their pride, the pride of the country, and alot of property damage to preserve life and prevent a civil war like situation. I have little doubt that longstanding plans existed for the scenario that played out and those plans were to de-escalate at all costs except imminent threats to the lives of elected officials. That is why the one woman rioter was shot. The room she was breaching likely was the predetermined and planned first line of "real" (cross this line and die) defense. Important assets, people and things, were likely just beyond that point.

If the police had met those insurrectionists with force and shots were fired in mass (as typically happens after just one is fired in a crowd) and especially if it was a massacre of the insurrectionists and maybe even some of the "peaceful" protesters out in the street, as it could have Very easily been, much of our nation would have quickly erupted in violence.

Violence begets violence isn't just a truism. It's an absolute rule in basic understanding of how large-scale civil unrest functions and grows. This was a dangerous national stage event like nothing we have seen in modern history if ever. If those insurrectionists, especially the sympathetic ones like costumed idiots, the elderly, veterans, and young white women were treated harshly much less mowed down by law enforcement (as one would think terrorists in the capital would be) every other gun toting right-wing idiot in the country would have seen it as a call to arms. Many of those on the fence about the legitimately of the election and the state of our democracy would have been activated and weaponized for the MAGA movement to "Take Back OUR Country".

The ruling class, the ones with half a brain (most certainly not trump) understand all of this and are doing their best to control the narrative that the police were incompetent and the domestic terrorists/insurrectionists were more akin to football hooligans.

The reality is we just came close to widespread radical far right domestic  terrorism erupting all across the country, likely at mostly every statehouse and mostly every residence of every politician and beyond, in a very narrow completely unmanageable time frame. All it would have taken to ignite that epically bad powderkeg is for law enforcement to be preceived as having come down hard on those rioters.

I suppose I’ll be the one to bring up the obvious follow-up question:

And is this the same preparedness and amount of force we would have seen had it been a BLM protest at the Capitol?

[DocWatts]

17 minutes ago, Ryan R said:

It likely won't come out for years but as a strategic security professional I can tell you what the police did (or didn't do.. like beat the crap out of , shoot dead, and arrest alot of people) at the capital was (prehaps poorly) planned. They were almost certainly ordered to put up marginal resistance to the rioters and to continuously fall back if necessary rather than cause harm. This is not because they were, as a group, sympathizers or racists or ordered to do this out of any nefarious purpose.  It was de-escalation of violence, as opposed to escalation and incitement of national-scale violence, plain and simple. The purpose of the inaction of security was nothing less than maintaining broad control of the nation.

They gave up their pride, the pride of the country, and alot of property damage to preserve life and prevent a civil war like situation. I have little doubt that longstanding plans existed for the scenario that played out and those plans were to de-escalate at all costs except imminent threats to the lives of elected officials. That is why the one woman rioter was shot. The room she was breaching likely was the predetermined and planned first line of "real" (cross this line and die) defense. Important assets, people and things, were likely just beyond that point.

If the police had met those insurrectionists with force and shots were fired in mass (as typically happens after just one is fired in a crowd) and especially if it was a massacre of the insurrectionists and maybe even some of the "peaceful" protesters out in the street, as it could have Very easily been, much of our nation would have quickly erupted in violence.

Violence begets violence isn't just a truism. It's an absolute rule in basic understanding of how large-scale civil unrest functions and grows. This was a dangerous national stage event like nothing we have seen in modern history if ever. If those insurrectionists, especially the sympathetic ones like costumed idiots, the elderly, veterans, and young white women were treated harshly much less mowed down by law enforcement (as one would think terrorists in the capital would be) every other gun toting right-wing idiot in the country would have seen it as a call to arms. Many of those on the fence about the legitimately of the election and the state of our democracy would have been activated and weaponized for the MAGA movement to "Take Back OUR Country".

The ruling class, the ones with half a brain (most certainly not trump) understand all of this and are doing their best to control the narrative that the police were incompetent and the domestic terrorists/insurrectionists were more akin to football hooligans.

The reality is we just came close to widespread radical far right domestic  terrorism erupting all across the country, likely at mostly every statehouse and mostly every residence of every politician and beyond, in a very narrow completely unmanageable time frame. All it would have taken to ignite that epically bad powderkeg is for law enforcement to be preceived as having come down hard on those rioters.

Thanks for the helping to clear that up, the reasoning you laid out seems much more plausible than alternative explanations I've come across so far. Even if it is depressing for the state of our country that perpetuating violence from a leverageable position of power apparently affords one more humane treatment at the hands of the Police...

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Willie said:

And is this the same preparedness and amount of force we would have seen had it been a BLM protest at the Capitol?

It's obvious that when the center of gravity of a society is, let's say Blue/Orange, there will be a natural bias to increase security for threats coming from enemies who are from stage Green vs from stage Blue/Orange. Just like you would have more security against strangers at your home vs family members even through the strangers could be nice people while your family members could be psychopaths who want to murder you.

It's always harder to defend against a threat which is closest to you. Which is why it's virtually impossible to defense against the corruption of your own mind, because it is so close to you that it's you.

How do you defend against the devil when you are him?

A floor lamp illuminates the whole room except the very floor it's standing on. That's the natural blindspot.

You should note that dynamic this will also occur with stage Green. Progressives will also make this mistake and have a blindspot towards leftist violence. For example, if a crowd of rabid socialists stormed the Capitol to start a socialist revolution against capitalism, progressives in the media would be much more sympathetic to their violence than they are to right-wing violence. Nothing surprising here. It's not racism. It's deeper than that. We saw this with the BLM riots in the summer. Stage Green is much more understanding of leftist violence and will make excuses for it.

Don't forget, leftist violence is possible, although it is less likely. The left is generally more conscious, but they are still deeply unconscious and they are not beyond the possibility of some kind of revolutionary movement once they get pissed off enough about the evils of capitalism.

It's extremely easy to denounce and demonize the other side when it goes too far. What's really hard is to denounce your side when it goes too far.

[Space Coyote]

2 hours ago, Ryan R said:

The reality is we just came close to widespread radical far right domestic  terrorism erupting all across the country, likely at mostly every statehouse and mostly every residence of every politician and beyond, in a very narrow completely unmanageable time frame. All it would have taken to ignite that epically bad powderkeg is for law enforcement to be preceived as having come down hard on those rioters.

Very reasonable explanation once rioters begin storming the building, but do you believe it was inevitable to let it get to the point of having to fall back in the first place? It would seem a larger security presence from the start would have keep the first soft line from being stormed in the first place. Or do you believe that too would be seen as coming down hard on the rioters?

Also, unless the amount of security people behind the real line was much higher than it seems I don't see how they chould have held it if the mob was more committed to an all out seige. Work of fiction but it came to my mind "history is filled with stories of great sieges, but sieges don't make the history books because the smaller force won they make history because the smaller force fought well before being killed". The optics at least are of the capitol police coming uncomfortably close to being that smaller force. How likely would you say that the optics are misleading and the real line was actually much better defended than it seems? Again the raw numerical advantage of the insurgents look to my untrained eye to be too great to effectively counter had they kept advancing without capitol police having numerical reinforcement of their own at the ready (which doesn't seem to be the case).  Do you disagree?

Edited January 12, 2021 by Space Coyote

[Marten]

Could be as many as 17 officers under investigation related to the insurrection at the Capitol.

Quote

In a statement Monday night, Capitol Police acting Chief Yogananda Pittman said several officers were suspended.

She said the department "has been actively reviewing video and other open source materials of some USCP officers and officials that appear to be in violation of Department regulations and policies. Our Office of Professional Responsibility will investigate these behaviors for disciplinary action, up to, and including, termination. Several USCP officers have already been suspended pending the outcome of their investigations."

...

The investigation into insurrectionist ties to law enforcement is a priority because the skills that officers are trained to use during their duties could be useful to an extremist mob, authorities say. This includes clearing rooms, taking custody of people, securing areas and handling firearms.

...

"We need to thoroughly investigate that, but I also know there were many officers who responded with tremendous bravery. Many officers were injured protecting the Capitol and we do thank them for their patriotism in protecting this temple of democracy."

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/11/politics/capitol-police-officers-suspended-tim-ryan/index.html

[Leo Gura]

I don't understand how it's hard for people to understand that the police are not a monolith. Out of 500 police, yeah, 20 might be sympathetic to MAGA. This is not a condemnation of the police. It's just a natural statistical outcome. The police are not fucking Rococop (and even Robocop had emotional conflicts of interest). They are real humans with emotions, egos, beliefs, religions, ideologies, biases, blindspots, weaknesses, etc. This is not an error. It just requires professionalism and oversight to manage.

Remember, in the end, we are policing ourselves. No magical gods nor droid army is policing us.

[Leo Gura]

This situation is so nuts that MAGA is now even turning on Brietbart and calling it fake news for censoring them and not telling them what they want to hear. Read the comments here of MAGA turning on Brietbart for not being right-wing enough for them! Lol

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/01/11/mike-pence-and-donald-trump-patch-up-relationship-in-white-house-meeting/#disqus_thread

This is truly going off the rails. Even the far right-wing media leaders will soon lose control of this MAGA movement as it devolves into pure rage and insanity.

When you tell these MAGA any fact that contradicts their narrow paranoid worldview, they just interpret it as you being part of the globalist conspiracy against them.

At this point these MAGA are too nuts for even FoxNews. They have created a Frankenstein and now he has broken loose and turned on his master.

[Rilles]

27 minutes ago, Marten said:

Yogananda Pittman

Lmao. 

"Police chief Sri Yogi Maharishi says..."

Edited January 12, 2021 by Rilles

[abrakamowse]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This situation is so nuts that MAGA is now even turning on Brietbart and calling it fake news for censoring them and not telling them what they want to hear.

Soon they will say Brietbart is socialist!

lmao!

[Rilles]

Just now, abrakamowse said:

Soon they will say Brietbart is socialist!

lmao!

Left and right are relative to where you stand. Tada!

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

But I also believe that the police has some structural features which tend attract Blue individuals (hierarchical relationships, authority, traditional masculine core and conservative)

Absolutely.

But you also have to consider: Green hippies and SJWs are not suitable for serving in a SWAT team. Law enforcement people must be hardened people given the animals they deal with on a regular basis. Law enforcement's job is largely to deal with stage Red -- who tend to be ruthless nutjobs.

It is foolish to hold law enforcement types to the same standards as Echkart Tolle. When you tell a law enforcement type to be an Eckhart Tolle type, that's like feeding your dog tofu.

[abrakamowse]

@Rilles ???

[Ryan R]

@Willie @Space Coyote

The incredible weakness of the initial outside police line is the main thing I found perplexing (supposedly it was no different from what Capitol Police would field for any protest), and while I think a greater show of force (more officers in riot gear) would have been used for a BLM protest, if the same people were calling the shots as for this trumpist coup I think the police would have been only a bit more on the offense as well as much more in number.  And yes, this perpensity towards greater violence at BLM would be a result of systemic racism and a general lashing out against progressive ideals, you know, crazy wild stuff like equality and fair unbiased treatment under the law and in society.... along with socialism!!! Commie bastards all of em! (I jest just here in case that wasn't clear)

According to this AP article titled "Capitol police were overrun, ‘left naked’ against rioters":

"Once the mob began to move on the Capitol, a police lieutenant issued an order not to use deadly force, which explains why officers outside the building did not draw their weapons as the crowd closed in. Officers are sometimes ordered against escalating a situation by drawing their weapons if superiors believe doing so could lead to a stampede or a shootout."

It's the shootout they were desperately trying to avoid. What I'm saying is this is likely the SOP for any well supported mobs (sadly, being directed by the POTUS who recently received 74 million votes makes them Very well supported) of angry fellow Americans attacking the Capitol. In this case it was especially important because, like it or not, MAGA is potentially country breaking scary powerful. BLM is also to a far lesser extent, and although it may be hard to believe, it has some respect of those in power if only from fear of civil uprising as well, but not nearly as much so as the MAGA trumpists.

That same AP article says "The police chief insisted they knew what they were doing. “He kept assuring me he had it under control — they knew what they were doing,” she said. “Either he’s incompetent, or he was lying or he was complicit.”.... Or things got a bit out of hand but overall went according to plan is what I'm now thinking.

According to this same article ATF bomb squads were standing by and were activated. Another article that I can't find now but I think was from a reputable source said an FBI strike team was present in the building the whole time. Another FBI strike team eventually joined them from the outside to clear the buildings as evident from many videos of the event. If these FBI strike teams didn't kill anybody (basically their normal job and they are very skilled at it) it was definitely only because they were under strict orders not to do so.

This AP article and other quality sources talk about how Capitol Police were warned and offered extensive aid by many other law enforcement agencies for the likely riots of these protests, and Capitol Police turned nearly all that aid down as well as apparently totally ignored these warnings. I've also read that the Capitol Police are 2300 in number just to police the Capitol grounds (That's a serious density of cops if they were all on duty) but only approximately 500 were on duty.

I am the complete opposite of any kind of conspiracy theorist, but after reading a bunch of articles and watching a few videos on what happened at the Capitol, I think the rioters were set up, lol. It looks to me like they were basically let in to run amok and make trumpism look as bad to the confused, ignorant, and underdeveloped Americans as most of us know it to be.

Optics in these situations is everything. Pretend if you can that you are sincerely unsure if trump and his devoted are the good guys or the bad guys in this country you love. Now the trumpists have desecrated the Capitol. In that attack, if you had to choose, who were the good guys and who were the bad guys? What if Capitol Police just clashed outside the building with the protesters, meaning they never got the chance to really ransack the place, and even a dozen of those "patriotic protesters" were killed. Can you imagine how trump would play this to his advantage while deflecting and shirking all responsibility? What would he do with all that power?... Get himself and most of his followers killed while causing Massive bloody destruction in the meantime, that's what.

Lastly to Space Coyote, from everything I've read the real line of defense was made up of at least Capitol Police SWAT, an FBI Strike Team, and some amount of Secret Service. All of these folks are elite and have the best toys money can buy. Considering the location and context, sky is the limit on the technology they could've had.

All of this is only an educated guess, except for the part about how the televised smashing of a mob of insurrectionists at the Capitol would surely lead to more, larger, and more violent mobs of insurrectionists given our current political climate. 

[DocWatts]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You should note that dynamic this will also occur with stage Green. Progressives will also make this mistake and have a blindspot towards leftist violence. For example, if a crowd of rabid socialists stormed the Capitol to start a socialist revolution against capitalism, progressives in the media would be much more sympathetic to their violence than they are to right-wing violence. Nothing surprising here. It's not racism. It's deeper than that. We saw this with the BLM riots in the summer. Stage Green is much more understanding of leftist violence and will make excuses for it.

Don't forget, leftist violence is possible, although it is less likely. The left is generally more conscious, but they are still deeply unconscious and they are not beyond the possibility of some kind of revolutionary movement once they get pissed off enough about the evils of capitalism.

It's extremely easy to denounce and demonize the other side when it goes too far. What's really hard is to denounce your side when it goes too far.

Let me take a moment to check my own biases, and imagine if the situation were reversed and BLM protesters or Socialists were storming the Capitol. ...And yup, this checks out.

That said, there are no authoritative Leftist politicians or thought leaders in America actually encouraging violence, at least that I'm aware of. Seems like a pretty big qualitative difference between violence on the Left vs. Right. In modern times, there's nothing at all comparable on the Left to the MAGA Cult (and let's hope there never will be).

Edited January 12, 2021 by DocWatts

[abrakamowse]

5 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

In modern times, there's nothing at all comparable on the Left to the MAGA Cult (and let's hope there never will be).

If there were something similar to MAGA in the left, there would be a Civil War again...

[DocWatts]

1 minute ago, abrakamowse said:

If there were something similar to MAGA in the left, there would be a Civil War again...

True... So let's try to make sure it doesn't come to that.

[abrakamowse]

@DocWatts Let's hope for the best... I was reading this article and the brainwashing is crazy...

 

https://apnews.com/article/us-capitol-trump-supporters-1806ea8dc15a2c04f2a68acd6b55cace

Just a fragment:

Quote

The Trump supporters who died in the riot were Kevin D. Greeson, 55, of Athens, Alabama; Benjamin Philips, 50, of Ringtown, Pennsylvania; Ashli Babbitt, 35, of San Diego; and Rosanne Boyland, 34, Kennesaw, Georgia.

Boyland’s sister told the AP on Friday she was an adherent of the QAnon conspiracy theory that holds Trump is America’s savior. Her Facebook page featured photos and videos praising Trump and promoting fantasies, including one theory that a shadowy group was using the coronavirus to steal elections. Boyland’s final post on Twitter — a retweet of a post by White House social media director Dan Scavino — was a picture of thousands of people surrounding the Washington Monument on Wednesday.

 

[Consept]

 

[Rilles]

This is great.

 

[Raphael]

10 minutes ago, Rilles said:

This is great.

 

LMAO

Stage red people cannot work together. Even if they are the same level of development and share the same values, they will hate themselves and fight each other.