Trump Supporters Storming The Capitol! - MAGA Coup Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Calling attention to the troubling inroads that far right extremist groups have made with law enforcement, something the FBI was been warning about for years, is not to allege that most individual police officers are white supremacists.

Yes, but I see progressive YTers blur that line frequently, calling all police racists or white supremicists. That's not a good look for the progressive left. It alienates good police officers and forces them to side with MAGA dumbasses who at least don't call them racist (which is actually more accurate).

Progressives need to be allies of the police so the police isn't sympathetic to fascists. We want the police on our side because the police is directly involved with social justice.

[DocWatts]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but I see progressive YTers blur that line frequently, calling all police racists or white supremicists. That's not a good look for the progressive left. It alienates good police officers and forces them to side with MAGA dumbasses who at least don't call them racist (which is actually more accurate).

Progressives need to be allies of the police so the police isn't sympathetic to fascists.

Fair enough, and I'm %100 for making allies with the police, as long as it doesn't come at expense of needed Reforms. And I guess that's the rub, getting Police departments on board with Humane Policing. A difficult prospect when Police Departments often benefit in real ways from corruption within the current criminal justice system, with things like 'Policing for Profit' and having access to military hardware. Not to mention from clear conflict of interest policies that shield police officers from facing consequences of misconduct.

Edited January 11, 2021 by DocWatts

[Yali]

Quote

It will surprise you, but most Nazis are not blood-thristy people.

@Leo Gura

Did the German populous know of Hitler's concentration camps?

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura

Did the German populous know of Hitler's concentration camps?

 

Do MAGA know or care about Trump's concentration camps on the Mexican border?

[Zega]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Do MAGA know or care about Trump's concentration camps on the Mexican boarder?

they do, and they blame Obama >_<

[Happy Lizard]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It alienates good police officers and forces them to side with MAGA dumbasses who at least don't call them racist (which is actually more accurate).

great point. I can see why the emphasis on calling it ethnocentricity.

[Danioover9000]

   Stop with the silly rhetorical nonsense, or you'll get a warning. Stay on topic.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Remarkably bad take by Sam Harris, who to his credit does at least understand the gravity of Trump's coup attempt and recognize the danger that Trump poses, while at the same time using Trump's coup as an opportunity to demonize the Left, and to deny the possibility of White Supremacist sympathies with the negligent way that the Capitol Hill Police weren't prepared for the quite obvious threat of violence from MAGA supporters.

He seems to think that Black Police Officers being on scene discredits the entire notion of possible White Supremacist ties in the Capitol Hill Police; doesn't even cross his mind that the Higher Ups could have left the people defending the Capitol building out to dry, or that racism in institutions can be compartmentalized. He just kind of shrugs of thr dysfunction of the Capitol Hill Police as a mystery, and leaves it at that.

 

I think Sam's analysis here is very good overall.

Yes, he did leave out the factor that the management of the Capitol Police may have had some nationalistic biases or even explicit instructions from the Trump admin.

But overall I agree with Sam. I would not call the Capitol Police racist. The simple explanation is that they were outnumbered and caught off-guard. A few of them, individually, were likely sympathetic to the MAGA agenda, but those few are not the majority. The majority of police are professionals, not racists. And systemic racial biases should not blamed on all individual cops.

[Lyubov]

[Sempiternity]

Looking like Trump pardoning himself isn't going to work.

"Self-pardon will not decrease the likelihood of his attempted prosecution by the Justice Department after he leaves office, and may even increase the chances of his indictment. More important, it will probably not result in legal recognition that the pardon power extends to presidential self-forgiveness. To the contrary, if Trump does attempt a self-pardon in the face of a compelling federal criminal case against him, the result is likely to be Supreme Court rejection of the self-pardon’s legality."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/a-self-pardon-wont-save-trump/617592/?fbclid=IwAR0dWLCRCdLC4nVmKiDIjo1quKNZxCED2J3BybnERBb0Pan1MM0_xB7TNVE

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Sempiternity said:

Looking like Trump pardoning himself isn't going to work.

A core problem with a self pardon is its counter the foundation a judicial system is built upon. That is, one cannot be the judge in their own case. Everyone would judge themselves as innocent and the judicial system dies. 

As well, if someone can be the judge of their own case and judge themself as innocent - it literally puts them above the law. 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I think Sam's analysis here is very good overall.

Yes, he did leave out the factor that the management of the Capitol Police may have had some nationalistic biases or even explicit instructions from the Trump admin.

But overall I agree with Sam. I would not call the Capitol Police racist. The simple explanation is that they were outnumbered and caught off-guard. A few of them, individually, were likely sympathetic to the MAGA agenda, but those few are not the majority. The majority of police are professionals, not racists. And systemic racial biases should not blamed on all individual cops.

I'll agree with your assessment that the Capitol Hill Police were caught off guard and overwhelmed, but why the hell weren't they better prepared in the first place? I've got nothing but respect for the cops who actually tried to do thier job under those circumstances, but it never should have come to that.

Incompetence as an explanation only gets you so far, since the threat of something exactly like this happening has been evident for weeks; seems far more likely that the higher ups in the Capitol Hill Police didn't take the threat of MAGA violence seriously and didn't prepare, likely due to biases in the organization. If a portion of our legislators have been supporting Trump's coup attempt, is it that unlikely that maybe some of the higher ups in the Capitol Hill Police were also sympathetic to Trump's cause, and only put in a half hearted effort to defend the Capitol Building from Trumpists?

Some degree of collusion with the Trump administration is also a possibility, though one that's worth being tentative about considering until the incident is investigated further.

Where were the rows of police in Riot gear that were there to meet the BlackLivesMatter protestors? Sam's explanation that the fiasco was due to the city of DC caving to pressure for police cutbacks doesn't seem to hold a lot of water, since the Capitol Hill Police are its own jurisdiction with its own Federal funding (to the tune of half a billion dollars a year). Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I would assume an organization like that much more insulated from public pressure than a city police department.

Edited January 12, 2021 by DocWatts

[Hardkill]

On 1/10/2021 at 0:20 PM, Tim R said:

At this point I feel that it almost doesn't matter who says what - because people will take sides; are you rep or are you dem? And then most people will simply dismiss whatever the other side has to say (even more so the current republican side for obvious reasons), even if a commission is established, MAGA supporters will not accept that Trump lost. No of conclusive proof or information will satisfy them.

Every reasonable person thinks critically (of this election), of course - but the system is to be trusted, otherwise: why bother having one? 

Unreasonable people won't be persuaded though, and no commission will change that. Those who never trusted in elections and/or democracy are in a real dilemma: if elections are rigged, then the outcome is rigged no matter who wins, and if democracy isn't to be trusted - why are you still here then?

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. What if they televised a full auditing of all of the ballots in each of the contested battlegrounds? That's what most conservatives in the US are saying that the public did not get that. They believe that we deserve absolute full transparency.

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

but why the hell weren't they better prepared in the first place?

That could be explained by systemic ethnocentric biases and blindspots of management.

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

What if they televised a full auditing of all of the ballots in each of the contested battlegrounds?

You are never going to logically convince MAGA people no matter how much evidence you provide.

That's like trying to dissuade Bin Laden by providing him and his people with scientific facts.

All election fraud cases were thrown out by courts and judges because they were pure bullshit. Election fraud in America virtually does not exist.

[abrakamowse]

35 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Yeah, I know what you mean. What if they televised a full auditing of all of the ballots in each of the contested battlegrounds? That's what most conservatives in the US are saying that the public did not get that. They believe that we deserve absolute full transparency.

If the things don't do their way, I mean, if Donald doesn't get the votes he wants... they will say that it was fake, that it was done by actors, whatever.

Isn't it enough proof the phone call that Donald did asking for "finding votes" that he is not worried about "transparency"???

 

... he only wants to win and power! That's all...

Edited January 12, 2021 by abrakamowse

[Sempiternity]

14 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Yeah, I know what you mean. What if they televised a full auditing of all of the ballots in each of the contested battlegrounds? That's what most conservatives in the US are saying that the public did not get that. They believe that we deserve absolute full transparency.

What would televising people counting ballots do exactly? Would every person hand counting have their own camera filming them? As the viewer you'd be sitting there with a split screen with hundreds of counties, with thousands of people sitting at a desk, for dozens of hours, on your TV? It would be like watching a thousand tax auditors doing paperwork at the same time for hours on end. What could anyone learn from watching all these people hand counting votes? Is it more it actually being documented that give peace of mind, thinking that it is most likely legit if it is in fact being filmed? 

[Hardkill]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are never going to logically convince MAGA people no matter how much evidence you provide.

That's like trying to dissuade Bin Laden by providing him and his people with scientific facts.

All election fraud cases were thrown out by courts and judges because they were pure bullshit. Election fraud in America virtually does not exist.

 

23 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

If the things don't do their way, I mean, if Donald doesn't get the votes he wants... they will say that it was fake, that it was done by actors, whatever.

Isn't it enough proof the phone call that Donald did asking for "finding votes" that he is not worried about "transparency"???

 

... he only wants to win and power! That's all...

 

23 minutes ago, Sempiternity said:

What would televising people counting ballots do exactly? Would every person hand counting have their own camera filming them? As the viewer you'd be sitting there with a split screen with hundreds of counties, with thousands of people sitting at a desk, for dozens of hours, on your TV? It would be like watching a thousand tax auditors doing paperwork at the same time for hours on end. What could anyone learn from watching all these people hand counting votes? Is it more it actually being documented that give peace of mind, thinking that it is most likely legit if it is in fact being filmed? 

Yeah, it's truly insane how the millions of MAGA people still don't believe that the election was really legitimately free and fair, even after the Trump legal team lost 60+ court cases down from the local courts all the way up to the US Supreme Court. Even after all of the state officials and the vast majority of the state legislatures within each of the contested battleground states did everything they possibly could to make that there was no widespread voter fraud, the crazy Trump supporters still don't believe it at all. Even after the DOJ from the Trump, the FBI, Bureau investigation agencies within each of the contested battleground states, the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency, the police within each of the contested battleground states, practically all top military officials, etc, found absolutely no evidence of unprecedented widespread voter fraud that occurred throughout the entire country, the demented Trump Zombies still refuse to believe that the 2020 general election was in fact the most secure election in American history. 

So, what can our country do to restore faith in both our democracy and the legitimacy of our elections?

[Sempiternity]

Just now, Hardkill said:

So, what can our country do to restore faith in both our democracy and the legitimacy of our elections?

There is no voter fraud, it's all lies and a con to try and steal the election. The voting is secure as it's ever been. So the only way to restore faith in the legitimacy of our elections is to punish those lying about it. 

[Ryan R]

5 hours ago, DocWatts said:

 

Incompetence as an explanation only gets you so far, since the threat of something exactly like this happening has been evident for weeks; seems far more likely that the higher ups in the Capitol Hill Police didn't take the threat of MAGA violence seriously and didn't prepare, likely due to biases in the organization. If a portion of our legislators have been supporting Trump's coup attempt, is it that unlikely that maybe some of the higher ups in the Capitol Hill Police were also sympathetic to Trump's cause, and only put in a half hearted effort to defend the Capitol Building from Trumpists?

Some degree of collusion with the Trump administration is also a possibility, though one that's worth being tentative about considering until the incident is investigated further.

It likely won't come out for years but as a strategic security professional I can tell you what the police did (or didn't do.. like beat the crap out of, shoot dead, and arrest alot of people) at the Capitol was (prehaps poorly) planned. They were almost certainly ordered to put up marginal resistance to the rioters and to continuously fall back if necessary rather than cause harm. This is not because they were, as a group, sympathizers or racist or ordered to do this out of any nefarious purpose.  It was de-escalation of violence, as opposed to escalation and incitement of national-scale violence, plain and simple. The purpose of the inaction of security was nothing less than maintaining broad control of the nation.

They gave up their pride, the pride of the country, and alot of property damage to preserve life and prevent a civil war like situation. I have little doubt that longstanding plans existed for the scenario that played out and those plans were to de-escalate at all costs except imminent threats to the lives of elected officials. That is why the one woman rioter was shot. The room she was breaching likely was the predetermined and planned first line of "real" (cross this line and die) defense. Important assets, people and things, were likely just beyond that point.

If the police had met those insurrectionists with force and shots were fired in mass (as typically happens after just one is fired in a crowd) and especially if it was a massacre of the insurrectionists and maybe even some of the "peaceful" protesters out in the street, as it could have Very easily been, much of our nation would have quickly erupted in violence.

Violence begets violence isn't just a truism. It's an absolute rule in basic understanding of how large-scale civil unrest functions and grows. This was a dangerous national stage event like nothing we have seen in modern history if ever. If those insurrectionists, especially the sympathetic ones like costumed idiots, the elderly, veterans, and young white women were treated harshly much less mowed down by law enforcement (as one would think terrorists in the capital would be) every other gun toting right-wing idiot in the country would have seen it as a call to arms. Many of those on the fence about the legitimacy of the election and the state of our democracy would have been activated and weaponized for the MAGA movement to "Take Back OUR Country".

The ruling class, the ones with half a brain (most certainly not trump) understand all of this and are doing their best to control the narrative that the police were incompetent and the domestic terrorists/insurrectionists were more akin to football hooligans.

The reality is we just came close to widespread radical far right domestic  terrorism erupting all across the country, likely at mostly every statehouse and mostly every residence of every politician and beyond, in a very narrow completely unmanageable time frame. All it would have taken to ignite that epically bad powderkeg is for law enforcement to be preceived as having come down hard on those rioters.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Ryan R
Mostly spelling... I'm dyslexic and autocorrect is my frenemy.