Trump Supporters Storming The Capitol! - MAGA Coup Mega-Thread

[Danioover9000]

@abrakamowse

37 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

@Danioover9000 I was painting roughly, I'm not saying they are the same. But similar in some things and of course different in others.

I see the similarity in that although Trump won the elections with the electoral college, unlike Hitler, whose first attempt at power was with a coup. Trump is now trying to stay in power with a coup. And in that, there is similarity with Hitler, with Hitler's first attempt.

The only difference is that  Trump is trying to do that at the end of his term. And unlike Hitler he is not involved directly but he is inciting people or let's call them domestic terrorists to do the work.

Now I estimate that he is going to follow  Hitler's footsteps, and try to win a second time with the popular vote, not electoral vote only. This is going to be similar to the time when Hitler realized that he can achieve the same without a coup, only convincing people about his crazy theories.

 

And if he achieves that, maybe the history of the second war will be repeated, but we don't know ... it's just speculation.

   I could say they are the same in that they both are victims of murky epistemology.

   Adolf Hitler deferred from Donald Trump in emotional and social problems, due to Hitler's upbringing being middle class, while Trump's was upper class. Both had Fathers who were dysfunction, yet Trump's father was more controlling and manipulative in programming Trump's value of business, competition and ambition, and Hitler's father was too masculine. I'm not sure about Trump's mother, but Hitler's mother was very unconditionally loving towards Hitler, stepping in when his father was trying to discipline Hitler too much, even allowing him his early N.E.E.T lifestyle while he was trying to pursue a career as a painter. Another difference is how both handled their negative emotions, and the main difference is that Hitler had, for the most part, never was able to properly grieve the passing of Edmund Hitler, which made him depressed and he constantly visited his brother's grave, talking to him. Trump, on the other hand, suppresses any major negative emotions, but I'm not too sure about this one. There are other differences to their starting points in life.

   Definitely many similarities in their middle lives, especially career wise, but it's important not to forget that both are very different in terms of financial livelihoods, Donald's mostly was brought in the upper class, while Hitler was middle class. Hitler, because he hadn't received early discipline, had an inflated ego of his place as an artist, despite his living conditions declining slowly to low class. After some failed attempts at the artistic career, he turned to military after WW1, were he finally gained that discipline, and developed his speaking abilities there. He then went into a bar where he got the mind virus that converted him into a Nazi. This is different from Trump, were he was mainly a business owner, and also the one who aired a few TV shows. In on of those shows, they had a political parody, I'm not sure of the details, but that's where he got the idea to run for President.

    Also, their ends would really be very different. We know now that Hitler, among others, have contributed to the horrors of WW2, yet we don't know what the future holds for Trump. The same fate as Hitler, to somehow die of something? Or just prison time? A disappearing act? Here, because it's all speculation, you get the greatest ranges of differences between the two people.

   Just like in this forum, where there are similarities and differences in political ideologies, left and right. You all have the same problems, being infected by the mind virus that makes you all defensive when it comes to being humble and admitting that your political position is an evil position, and at least thanks to Leo's videos on epistemology, and your own honest critical thinking, some of you can see this partially. Most of these differences are surface level, that the left can stoop to the level of propaganda that the right does, but have more subtle ways of demonizing, generalizing and distracting away a partial truth. The right's way of propaganda is mostly crude, sometimes subtle, but definitely more stronger than the left's propaganda for sure, and sometimes people here get triggered differently and treated differently for these issues.

   At least the Matrix A.I had a no bullshit approach to handling issues and world domination: sweet dreams. When can we have that stuff?

Edited January 8, 2021 by Danioover9000

[abrakamowse]

@Danioover9000 I agree with most of the things you've written. I think I was trying to make just a broad comparison.

But yes, definitely there's a lot of differences and a lot of similarities. And obviously we are living different times, so a lot of other factors are affecting the way things are developing now.

About how he got the idea of running for president, I think that's explained in the documentary about  Roger Stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Me_Roger_Stone

Roger Stone said that he suggested Trump to run for president long time ago. And then Trump himself said that if America was doing "badly" he would consider running for president.

Another coincidence that I forgot to mention is the fact that Donald has German ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_family

Edited January 8, 2021 by abrakamowse

[Yog]

Some humor
 

 

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@abrakamowse

   I could say they are the same in that they both are victims of murky epistemology.

   Adolf Hitler deferred from Donald Trump in emotional and social problems, due to Hitler's upbringing being middle class, while Trump's was upper class. Both had Fathers who were dysfunction, yet Trump's father was more controlling and manipulative in programming Trump's value of business, competition and ambition, and Hitler's father was too masculine. I'm not sure about Trump's mother, but Hitler's mother was very unconditionally loving towards Hitler, stepping in when his father was trying to discipline Hitler too much, even allowing him his early N.E.E.T lifestyle while he was trying to pursue a career as a painter. Another difference is how both handled their negative emotions, and the main difference is that Hitler had, for the most part, never was able to properly grieve the passing of Edmund Hitler, which made him depressed and he constantly visited his brother's grave, talking to him. Trump, on the other hand, suppresses any major negative emotions, but I'm not too sure about this one. There are other differences to their starting points in life.

   Definitely many similarities in their middle lives, especially career wise, but it's important not to forget that both are very different in terms of financial livelihoods, Donald's mostly was brought in the upper class, while Hitler was middle class. Hitler, because he hadn't received early discipline, had an inflated ego of his place as an artist, despite his living conditions declining slowly to low class. After some failed attempts at the artistic career, he turned to military after WW1, were he finally gained that discipline, and developed his speaking abilities there. He then went into a bar where he got the mind virus that converted him into a Nazi. This is different from Trump, were he was mainly a business owner, and also the one who aired a few TV shows. In on of those shows, they had a political parody, I'm not sure of the details, but that's where he got the idea to run for President.

    Also, their ends would really be very different. We know now that Hitler, among others, have contributed to the horrors of WW2, yet we don't know what the future holds for Trump. The same fate as Hitler, to somehow die of something? Or just prison time? A disappearing act? Here, because it's all speculation, you get the greatest ranges of differences between the two people.

   Just like in this forum, where there are similarities and differences in political ideologies, left and right. You all have the same problems, being infected by the mind virus that makes you all defensive when it comes to being humble and admitting that your political position is an evil position, and at least thanks to Leo's videos on epistemology, and your own honest critical thinking, some of you can see this partially. Most of these differences are surface level, that the left can stoop to the level of propaganda that the right does, but have more subtle ways of demonizing, generalizing and distracting away a partial truth. The right's way of propaganda is mostly crude, sometimes subtle, but definitely more stronger than the left's propaganda for sure, and sometimes people here get triggered differently and treated differently for these issues.

   At least the Matrix A.I had a no bullshit approach to handling issues and world domination: sweet dreams. When can we have that stuff?

Thank you so much for this detailed comparison. I found it really interesting Recently I have been getting intrigued with extreme cases like this and the psychology behind them. Especially with Trump. He is such a petri dish of issues and a dumpster fire of neurosis to where he is like a horrific car crash that you can't turn away from. I'm planning on reading more into him as a person after he isn't president and I don't see him on the news every day, ya know for my own sanity. But yeah super fascinating!!! It's like studying a science experiment of an ego go horribly wrong in every possible way. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

What worries me is that they are creating their own social media sites, to feed that crazy echo chamber of conspiracy. Who know how this will end?

Take a look at Parler, they have almost 4 million of users. That's too much crazy...

Maybe they need to create their own Republic of Donald

:-P

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/11/11/parler-mewe-gab-social-media-trump-election-facebook-twitter/6232351002/

Of course they will try to make their own niche platforms to maintain their bubble of false reality.

But, this will not work because all these right-wing platforms will be shunned by mainstream platforms and they will become very niche radicalized places with such extreme views and lack of moderation that they will eventually get shut down.

This is what we see with platforms like 4chan and 8chan. Eventually even the hosting companied and payment processing companies will refuse to do biz with them. So will major advertizers. And so they will be relegated to the darkest underbelly of the internets.

If there's one thing running this forum for 4 years has taught me it is this: no healthy online community can exist without serious and swift moderation against devilry. Exactly like society at large. A healthy society cannot exist without police. All the major online platforms are learning this lesson very deeply with the destruction they have caused. Facebook, YT, Reddit, Twitter, even 4chan.

Operating a massive online platform is a great responsibility akin to having a child. You cannot have a policy of letting your child do whatever the hell they want.

In the end, the vast majority of people prefer healthy, well-moderated online platforms that are free of trolls, extremists, cults, and toxic conspriacy theories.

In the end, truth wins and falsehoods die. That's the beauty of truth. It always wins eventually.

[Preety_India]

I was a part of such media sites. 

They don't last long. Like abrakadabra, they disappear into thin air 

 

 

[abrakamowse]

@Leo Gura Cool Leo, thanks.... that's good to know.

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I was a part of such media sites. 

They don't last long. Like abrakadabra, they disappear into thin air

Lol... I hope so... but now that Leo explained how it works I think what he says makes a lot of sense. The community will prevail.

That's good news.

:-)

Edited January 8, 2021 by abrakamowse

[Lionhead]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes

These people are brainwashed by the right-wing populist conspiracy theory alt-media echo-chamber.

It's not just fringe stuff though, it's also FoxNews and the like. Basically any right-wing media source in the last 4 years. Including stuff like Tim Pool, Brietbart, Ben Shapiro, Charlie Kirk, Jordan Peterson, etc. consuming all that trash ideology adds up to mind-cancer. Their sense of reality is so delusional and reactionary that they have lost all sense of decency and common sense. In their minds their actions are fully justified because they legit believe that pedophile communists are taking control of America. That is their worldview in a nutshell.

It saddens me deeply that people invest so much mental energy into these kinds of intangible fears. I have lost friends over this political right-wing nonsense. One of my old friends who spent a lot of time on social media slowly got indoctrinated into fascism. He legitimately believes that pedophiles run the country and that the only way to stop it is through violence. He would go on tirades about politicians kidnapping babies and eating them and SJW brainwashing and communist infiltration, race and IQ, the destruction of the white race etc. He called me an SJW and an apathetic hippie when I didn't express fear and indignation towards his imaginary super-villains George Soros and Rothschild and Mark Zuckerberg (even though he constantly used facebook). I simply told him that he should form his worldview in the real world, not on youtube and facebook. He cut me off after learning I worked for the Biden campaign. 

He used to be a level-headed, laid back guy guy, but now he is judgmental and high-strung, dismissing people for not sharing his ideology, and he is getting involved in alt-right political groups and these conspiracy theories changed his views on all kinds of topics, now he believes abortion is evil and gay people are degenerates and so forth. I have thoroughly studied this worldview myself, and I have concluded that even if it is all true, I would rather not live my life in abject fear, nor subject myself to being a social outcast in the name of this ideology. I feel I lack the knowledge and experience to be qualified to form these kinds of strong opinions toward the government and society, but maybe I am wrong. 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Lionhead said:

It saddens me deeply that people invest so much mental energy into these kinds of intangible fears. I have lost friends over this political right-wing nonsense. One of my old friends who spent a lot of time on social media slowly got indoctrinated into fascism. He legitimately believes that pedophiles run the country and that the only way to stop it is through violence. He would go on tirades about politicians kidnapping babies and eating them and SJW brainwashing and communist infiltration, race and IQ, the destruction of the white race etc. He called me an SJW and an apathetic hippie when I didn't express fear and indignation towards his imaginary super-villains George Soros and Rothschild and Mark Zuckerberg (even though he constantly used facebook). I simply told him that he sh

Sad and tragic indeed.

That's why I harp on epistemology so much. We badly need to teach epistemology in school to innoculate people from these kinds of mind viruses.

That's my ultimate life goal.

[Frylock]

https://reut.rs/3s6i51F

House to move forward with bringing impeachment charges to Trump on Monday. This is important for three reasons.

1. Trump will be unable to pardon during this time period. This could last past the inauguration.

2. The Democrat senate will be in place past the inauguration. If his impeachment comes from the democrat house and democrat senate, he will no longer be able to hold office in the future.

3. If this goes to Republican senate, this will showcase to the public that once again, Republicans are siding with Trump and therefore siding with terrorists and anti-democratic procedures.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Frylock

[Preety_India]

@abrakamowse hopefully. 

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Frylock said:

House to move forward with bringing impeachment charges to Trump on Monday.

Good!

Having thought about this some more, I agree that there need to be as many consequences as possible for Trump and his movement. They need to be publically shamed and humiliated to the point where no reasonable person will want to be associated with it any more. Similar to Nazis. MAGA needs to become as stigmatized a term as Nazi. As soon as you identify yourself as a Nazi no one takes you seriously. Same should go for MAGA.

Future generations need to clearly see that this kind of political behavior will never be acceptable and will have serious personal consequences. Devilry must be punished or it will spread.

[Lionhead]

@Leo Gura  That's why I love your work, Leo.

[hoodrow trillson]

17 minutes ago, Lionhead said:

It saddens me deeply that people invest so much mental energy into these kinds of intangible fears. I have lost friends over this political right-wing nonsense. One of my old friends who spent a lot of time on social media slowly got indoctrinated into fascism. He legitimately believes that pedophiles run the country and that the only way to stop it is through violence. He would go on tirades about politicians kidnapping babies and eating them and SJW brainwashing and communist infiltration, race and IQ, the destruction of the white race etc. He called me an SJW and an apathetic hippie when I didn't express fear and indignation towards his imaginary super-villains George Soros and Rothschild and Mark Zuckerberg (even though he constantly used facebook). I simply told him that he should form his worldview in the real world, not on youtube and facebook. He cut me off after learning I worked for the Biden campaign. 

He used to be a level-headed, laid back guy guy, but now he is judgmental and high-strung, dismissing people for not sharing his ideology, and he is getting involved in alt-right political groups and these conspiracy theories changed his views on all kinds of topics, now he believes abortion is evil and gay people are degenerates and so forth. I have thoroughly studied this worldview myself, and I have concluded that even if it is all true, I would rather not live my life in abject fear, nor subject myself to being a social outcast in the name of this ideology. I feel I lack the knowledge and experience to be qualified to form these kinds of strong opinions toward the government and society, but maybe I am wrong. 

As a person who grew up on unregulated forums/message boards of the early 2000s with an insane amount of trolling and different types of humor:  I've also realized a lot of people (for example, "Normies") have never had or used the internet in a forum-style in their entire lives.  They never had that line drawn between reality and virtual, that distinction never existed when they first logged onto Facebook. When the smartphone became mainstream, a lot of people went head first into these things, compiled with the algorithms looking for more money from ads = exactly what we're seeing these days.

Back when I was on forums, most knew what forums were and what was trolling and what was bullshit and irony.  Flamewars used to be a term reserved for absolutely shitting on random people online on forums but now flamewars have turned into reality.  Pretty crazy IMO.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Frylock said:

2. The Democrat senate will be in place past the inauguration. If his impeachment comes from the democrat house and democrat senate, he will no longer be able to hold office in the future.

To bar Trump from office, the Senate would need to convict with a 2/3 majority. I don't see 17 republicans voting to convict. Yet I imagine there are alot of senate republicans that don't want Trump running in 2024. Yet, they also don't want to lose the MAGA base by convicting Trump.

Republicans are in a tough spot. Voting to aquit Trump is really bad optics for center America. It's hard to justify Trump's recent behavior to average Americans. Yet voting to aquit Trump would outrage the MAGA base, which is about half the party. Yet as time goes on, Trump will lose flavor.

If the Dems go for it, I think they need to do it as soon as possible. If a senate trial goes into next March, the events won't be as fresh and they will lose momentum. If a senate vote was held today, any senator that voted to aquit Trump would take a lot of damage. Yet in a couple months when Biden is in full swing, I don't see it as damaging.

[Forestluv]

Allowing extremists on mainstream platforms also gives them some credibility and normalcy. They become "just another opinion" mixed in with reasonable mainstream. A FB group planning to storm capital buildings is mixed in with regular people posting pictures of their pets and gardens. Yet a 4Chan group planning to storm capital buildings is seen very differently. This is why fringe online groups were ecstatic after Trump's "Both sides" comments after Charlottesville - it was a shift to normalizing them and brought them into mainstream conversation. This was one of Trump's damaging effects. He shifted the Overton window and brought in extreme, marginalized behavior toward mainstream. And unfortunately, it brings in a lot of revenue to online platforms. 

I notice the Lincoln Project has set up a campaign to reveal the main contributors of any republican that voted against election certification and their is pressure for Simon and Schuster to rescind Josh Hawley's book deal, which can make extremism less profitable. And those at the extreme can shout "We're not extreme! We're just another view! What about blah blah (conspiracy theory)". And they can pull it off because they are allowed to mix in with mainstream. 

[Lionhead]

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Allowing extremists on mainstream platforms also gives them some credibility and normalcy. They become "just another opinion" mixed in with reasonable mainstream. A FB group planning to storm capital buildings is mixed in with regular people posting pictures of their pets and gardens. Yet a 4Chan group planning to storm capital buildings is seen very differently. This is why fringe online groups were ecstatic after Trump's "Both sides" comments after Charlottesville - it normalized them and brought them into mainstream conversation. This was one of Trump's damaging effects. He shifted the Overton window and brought in extreme, marginalized behavior toward mainstream. 

This could be seen in a positive light however. I think this can result in more people taking notice of society at large, and many may become interested in involving themselves in the changes taking place in society.

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

To bar Trump from office, the Senate would need to convict with a 2/3 majority. I don't see 17 republicans voting to convict. Yet I imagine there are alot of senate republicans that don't want Trump running in 2024. Yet, they also don't want to lose the MAGA base by convicting Trump.

Republicans are in a tough spot. Voting to aquit Trump is really bad optics for center America. It's hard to justify Trump's recent behavior to average Americans. Yet voting to aquit Trump would outrage the MAGA base, which is about half the party. Yet as time goes on, Trump will lose flavor.

Don't forget that politicians are pragmatic above all else. When they sense that Trump is no longer useful to them because he is about to lose all his power they might turn on him on a dime to save their own asses.

In a sense, Republicans right now have an easy out to redeem their personal images. All they have to do is vote for impeachment. I think it's possible that 17 of them could be pragmatic enough for that. For example, history will look kindly upon Mitt Romney for being the only Republican to vote for Trump's first impeachment. Romney had integrity and he deserves credit for that. Republicans can begin to whitewash their image as soon as next week.

Also, it seems like Trump can still be impeached after Jan 20th when Dems take the Senate. Which is another good option if McConnell is the obstacle now.

It doesn't really matter if Trump is forced to resign via impeachment. Just impeach him. It's important that in history Trump goes down as the only President to be impeached twice. This is worthwhile to do. It will discredit far right-wing politics for generations.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Lionhead said:

This could be seen in a positive light however. I think this can result in more people taking notice of society at large, and many may become interested in involving themselves in the changes taking place in society.

In the big picture it's all just a natural part of ever-expanding democratization.

So, paradoxically, Trumpism is democracy at work. Democracy is just a counter-intuitive and nonlinear thing.

There is a profound nondual connection between authoritarianism and democracy. These things are not really opposites. There is a Hegelian dialect going on here between the two.

[Lionhead]

36 minutes ago, hoodrow trillson said:

As a person who grew up on unregulated forums/message boards of the early 2000s with an insane amount of trolling and different types of humor:  I've also realized a lot of people (for example, "Normies") have never had or used the internet in a forum-style in their entire lives.  They never had that line drawn between reality and virtual, that distinction never existed when they first logged onto Facebook. When the smartphone became mainstream, a lot of people went head first into these things, compiled with the algorithms looking for more money from ads = exactly what we're seeing these days.

Back when I was on forums, most knew what forums were and what was trolling and what was bullshit and irony.  Flamewars used to be a term reserved for absolutely shitting on random people online on forums but now flamewars have turned into reality.  Pretty crazy IMO.

The internet has changed a lot since then, mainly in the construction of echo chambers. They follow one right wing page after sharing a meme, and then they get suggestions from others and over time they become saturated in content that goes deeper into the rabbit hole of the ideology. What can start out as some benign right wing opinions (making fun of SJWs) will evolve into total nazism and radical ideology. Watch a steven crowder, stefan molyneux or PragerU video on youtube and a week later your feed is filled with alt-right content perpetuating conspiracy theories. At least on old forums these kinds of ideologies would face opposition from other members and wouldn't be taken seriously. Differing opinions were forced to harmonize with eachother to some extent