Trump Supporters Storming The Capitol! - MAGA Coup Mega-Thread

[Willie]

Well, on the one hand you have the killing of some unarmed people, and allowing other people who are armed into government buildings. On the other hand, you have an iffy slogan. I think it’s a silly discussion, honestly. Police need to be better. This is non-negotiable.

If you want good slogans from the left, listen to Rage Against the Machine and System of a Down.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Willie

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Willie said:

Well, on the one hand you have the killing of some unarmed people, and allowing other people who are armed into government buildings. On the other hand, you have an iffy slogan. I think it’s a silly discussion, honestly. Police need to be better. This is non-negotiable.

Again, to be fair here, progressive protesters burn shit down, vandalize stuff, and occupy government property too. So it's more than just slogans. Civil rights riots do happen and property gets damaged and some people even die.

But they are not equal to MAGA buffoonery. MAGA is in a league of its own.

The difference is that Civil Rights is a legit cause to fight for. Overthrowing democracy just so Trump can have a 2nd term is not.

[Willie]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, to be fair here, progressive protesters burn shit down, vandalize stuff, and occupy government property too. So it's more than just slogans.

But they are not equal to MAGA buffoonery. MAGA is in a league of its own.

Yeah, people are capable of wrongdoing no matter their level of consciousness. But criticisms against them become more tenuous the higher you go in consciousness. Criticisms against the police are well-founded.

[Jennjenn]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The difference is that Civil Rights is a legit cause to fight for. Overthrowing democracy just so Trump can have a 2nd term is not.

This is what I thought today while analyzing the events at the capitol and its similarities with the riots — Civil rights, systemic racism, mass incarceration and police brutality are real issues that have hurt people for 100s of years and it is a valid and legit cause. 
Following the lead of a wannabe dictator, narcissistic psycho is not. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Willie said:

Criticisms against the police are well-founded.

Some narrow criticisms are. But many of the criticisms of police that I hear from progressives are just coming from ignorance of how policing works.

To truly criticize the police effectively one would need a lot of experience in the field. Because it's a management and training problem. Specific and laser-targetted reforms are needed, not vague slogans.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Jennjenn said:

This is what I thought today while analyzing the events at the capitol and its similarities with the riots — Civil rights, systemic racism, mass incarceration and police brutality are real issues that have hurt people for 100s of years and it is a valid and legit cause. 
Following the lead of a wannabe dictator, narcissistic psycho is not. 

Of course, the ability to make this distinction is what it all comes down to. Conservatives are often too blinded by ideology to be able to make it. And hence the tragedy of it all.

[DocWatts]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/pence-not-trump-activated-the-national-guard-report.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/06/politics/25th-amendment-explainer/index.html

Not sure how much credence to give this, but I'm hearing talk of the 25th Amendment being invoked and Trump being removed from Office for the few weeks he has remaining.

Pence, not Trump, was apparently the one to call in the National Guard tonight, which is highly unusual because under normal circumstances only the President has the authority to do so. 

Not really sure what to make of this in all honesty.

Edited January 7, 2021 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

If Trump is kicked out early using some 25th Amendment, that will feed the MAGA paranoia of a coup against Trump. This will drive the MAGA extremists and conspiracy theorists wild as they will feel like all that Alex Jones stuff has come true. Not sure how wise that is at this late stage. Might be best to wait it out and have him leave under the classic conditions so MAGA have no claim of an establishment coup against Trump.

The psychology here is very tricky. When you are dealing with a crazy person, if you completely disregard his crazy view of the world, it might come back to bite you. It is the burden of the sane person to take the insane person's insanity seriously in asymmetrical fashion -- which is part of what makes him sane and reasonable. So it's important not to totally piss off the MAGA crowd, precisely because they are batshit nuts.

[DocWatts]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

If Trump is kicked out early using some 25th Amendment, that will feed the MAGA paranoia of a coup against Trump. This will drive the MAGA extremists and conspiracy theorists wild as they will feel like all that Alex Jones stuff has come true.

Yeah, but it's already to the point where Trump supporters are storming the Capital, and a majority of his supporters believe in thier bones that the election was fraudulent. Seems like we're already past that point, no?

[abrakamowse]

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Yeah, but it's already to the point where Trump supporters are storming the Capital, and a majority of his supporters believe in thier bones that the election was fraudulent. Seems like we're already past that point, no?

I would say no. Things could always get much worse. Nothing seriously bad has happened yet.

This storming of the Capitol is ultimately just for show. It's not a serious threat yet. Things could be driven much worse if push comes to shove.

Yes, MAGA are deluded. But it's important not to provoke a deluded person too much.

Right now we have the moral and legal high ground. We need to keep it. Let MAGA make fools of themselves. Don't be too reactive. Simply uphold the laws. That's all we need. Starting a war with MAGA is what MAGA extremists would love.

[abrakamowse]

Trump doesn’t have the needed support for a coup, IMO.

but maybe I’m wrong...

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

Trump doesn’t have the needed support for a coup, IMO.

but maybe I’m wrong...

It's a good stress-test of our systems. I don't take the threat too seriously at this point. There will be a lot of huffing and puffing but little bite because I don't think Trump is competent or ruthless enough to pull it off. He's not harsh enough to be a dictator. He's a phony, reality-TV, con-man -- not a real dictator. Which is why I've never worried that he would stage a real coup. He's a buffoon and this is his ego's coping strategy.

His MAGA cult is dangerous, though. They will not pull off a successful coup, but they can cause damage in other ways so they need to be carefully contained like a wild animal.

[abrakamowse]

@Leo Gura  I agree. It’s not good what’s happening but it was a wake up call to see how fragile is democracy. 
 

i hope the best comes out of all this mess 

?

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

to see how fragile is democracy

Don't worry. Democracy is not so fragile. It's dictatorship that's truly fragile.

The US' bureaucracy is too advanced to allow a coup or dictatorship to occur. That's my best bet.

Of course we must still remain on-guard. Can't let the guard down.

My biggest worries are what happens in 4 years if Biden is not successful and MAGA re-surges. MAGA might morph in ugly ways in the future. It really is like a cornered wild animal -- you don't know quite how to handle it and you can't just ignore it. I don't see these people just melting away like spring snow.

[Lyubov]

Trump is starting to rake his own VP over the coals. He is totally unhinged and this is totally not surprising for stage red.

The problem with the defund the police slogan is that it is just that, a slogan. Real police reform likely won't see less money being spent on the force but a general restructuring of it. Funds need to be allocated for proper training of all kinds. You can become a police officer in the US faster than you can become a hair dresser at a salon in some states. Also social work should be further merged into policing. Basically the entire institution needs to be reformed but this won't just happen out of nowhere. It will happen over time as society develops a new police force. The defund the police talk is just an expression of mean green venting. It's in a sense similar to hippies that chain themselves to trees or storm a governors building for climate change. Their activities play a role in raising awareness of the issue but they aren't a means to an end to solving them.

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Trump is starting to rake his own VP over the coals. He is totally unhinged and this is totally not surprising for stage red.

A cornered rat will puff himself up and hiss and claw

Remember, for Trump this is existential. After Jan 20th his legal troubles begin. He is not merely fighting for the Presidency. He's fighting for his entire life. He is not like Obama who can gracefully ride off into the sunset and enjoy his life of leisure.

[Frylock]

Leo, you nailed your prediction about Trump flailing and doing everything he can to burn down the system with him. So I've followed your political viewpoints closely.

I don't see another con man rising to power with the same moxie to stir up primitive emotions of fear, hatred and discrimination against others like Trump was able to do with the right wing base, so my thought was that MAGA should flare down once he's out of the picture.

But the endless, self-bias echo chamber of social media will not go away, and this is a scary realization. The only way that social media platforms will end their enabling of mind poisoning is if they're forced to. It will take several far more intense democracy threatening, safety infringing events than the one that occurred at the Capitol. Shit is gonna have to really hit the fan before the right-wing echo chamber that is entitely based on fiction, lies and fear ever gets policed.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Frylock said:

I don't see another con man rising to power with the same moxie to stir up primitive emotions of fear, hatred and discrimination against others like Trump was able to do with the right wing base, so my thought was that MAGA should flare down once he's out of the picture.

Of course Trump is one of a kind and not easily replaceable. And he's getting too old for this shit.

But...

He can still run in 2024. He can still troll on Twitter for a decade to come. And now that he's proven a market for MAGA ideology, some other young politician will emerge to seize on the opportunity. Looking at you, Josh Hawley. It's already happening. People are sitting around in offices right now strategizing how to hijack the MAGA movement once Trump is out. These guys will be thinking, "How can we do what Trump did, but this time without his incompetence, buffoonery, and outright vulgarity?"

The billion dollar question is: Can the MAGA movement be led by someone who is not an outright clown and buffoon? Or is that inherently the appeal that makes MAGA so hot. If they can manage to sanitize it by making it not look so outright clownish, they will fool even more people into buying it.

What does MAGA look like without Trump? Can it still exist? Or is the buffoonery and vulgarity the core appeal?

[Leo Gura]

@Etherial Cat I just don't see it happening with so little time left.