Girls struggle more in daiting than we realize

[SamC]

A couple of days ago I got the idea to investigate more into the fears, insecurities and struggles girls face in daiting. Oh God, how shocked I was. Many comments on the youtube videos feuturing how woman can attract men - reminded me of myself.

The anger, fear, ego and frustration.. all of it was there. Many angry woman even used the same rationalizations that I used against the girls who have rejected me. That on a structure level though, because the content of what they said was obviously different.

To the point -

The false and limiting beliefs that was portrayed about men in the comment sections in these videos was many times flat out wrong, biased, skewed and sometimes even borderline crazy. Yet, I still believed in similar ones, but which regarded woman.

That being said, it would be werid and irrational to assume that I at the same time am not biased, wrong and carry similar limiting beliefs about girls. Cause this is the perfect mirror if you're angry at girls. ( I mean think about it - it's your problem but from the opposite perspective)

My advise is therefor if you're called to do it to look in that mirror! Open up your heart and mind for the fact that some girls feel just as angry and misunderstood as you do.

Don't shut down the possibility that the same anger and hoplessness that you're feeling is what is driving woman aswell. Discover what is true for yourself! Be curious about If that's the case or not. Try to understand what their anger is - cause if you can understand that, you're one step closer to understand that exact struggle, but within yourself.

And for the real self honest pros out there - go look at the comments on this video down below. Be careful though, cause you might discover something about yourself in the proccess.

... 

P.s - if anger arises when reading the comments. That's the mirror in action right there. You're on the right track.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by SamC

[No Self]

A good point. This is why I try hard to use gender-neutral terminology when discussing these issues. What's the difference between the hardships experienced by, say, a very overweight woman or a very underconfident man? None that I can see. Everyone is just struggling to fulfil the infinite cravings of the body-mind.

[Lyubov]

They do indeed. I think men see that they have it easy when it comes to the very simple step of simply finding someone that is attracted to them and automatically assume that's everything and the end of it. Talk to women. You'd be surprised how much they are worried and concerned about finding a deep connection and the right partner for them that will love them how they desire to be loved. All sorts of insecurities arise in them just as it does for men when it comes to expressing our initial attraction to them. Simply arousing a man and having him interested in you physically isn't the entire domain of dating and relationships. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Lyubov

[aurum]

@SamC

Amazing what happens when we start to overcome our own trauma and biases .

[Leo Gura]

Women struggle with dating more than any man can fathom.

It's just a different struggle.

There is no greater myth than when guys believe: "It's unfair, women have it easy because they can just go to a bar and get banged by some random dude, but I as a guy can't do the the same with hot women."

Lolz

The self-bias in such logic is staggering.

[SamC]

10 hours ago, No Self said:

A good point. This is why I try hard to use gender-neutral terminology when discussing these issues. What's the difference between the hardships experienced by, say, a very overweight woman or a very underconfident man? None that I can see. Everyone is just struggling to fulfil the infinite cravings of the body-mind.

You're right, the only difference is the content of the struggle

[Moon]

This forum is like 80% men, so you're only seeing a disproportionate amount of issues by a lot of guys here too. 

No doubt, for an insecure woman to read some of these threads would hurt. Such as the big emphasis on looks over anything. In addition to society already having way higher beauty standards for women anyway, with certain upbringings and wiring heightening these insecurities. (The main reasons I've ever wished I was a guy in the past ? so I can not give a shit about how I look and be  more carefree in regards to this). 

Looks (and personality) don't seem to matter at allll if a girl wants sex with almost any guy ? But when it comes to dating apparently they do.

Trust issues forming after women being with players or being used sexually and hence the "men are trash" rhetoric resulting is ofc a popular notion and also leads to limiting beliefs in dating (more so than for men).

There is also the general lack of understanding between the sexes which happens here too which causes a lot of the frustrations. 

I don't imagine Mathew Hussey has ever said how important looks are for women in attraction and would get a lot of hate for it! His advice is decent for the non-physical parts of dating and relationships though. 

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, datamonster said:

Well, it's kinda true though.

Only because you're so self-biased you don't even have a clue what the female survival agenda involves.

[MrBON]

@Leo Gura @modmyth It would be a good idea to actually explain it to the self biased people here instead of just saying "you guys have no idea about the struggles girls face" all the time. A self biased person fails to see this and needs some points to start thinking.

The way i see it is that girls are pickier than guys due to the fact that they are burned with the task of having to bear  children while guy can fuck and leave. Therefore the girl is naturally more picky and a picky person is a person that is harder to get satisfied in life.

A decent looking decently confident, decently cool guy can get laid once a while if he approaches a lot. His struggles are pretty clear on the people on this forum since most are self biased males. (having to approach A LOT , needing to become more confident and charismatic etc etc)

How about you guys explain to the audience (and myself) the issues a decent looking decently cool girl faces.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by MrBON

[soos_mite_ah]

14 hours ago, Moon said:

This forum is like 80% men, so you're only seeing a disproportionate amount of issues by a lot of guys here too. 

No doubt, for an insecure woman to read some of these threads would hurt. Such as the big emphasis on looks over anything. In addition to society already having way higher beauty standards for women anyway, with certain upbringings and wiring heightening these insecurities. (The main reasons I've ever wished I was a guy in the past ? so I can not give a shit about how I look and be  more carefree in regards to this). 

I had a similar experience when I came to this forum and went to the dating section. It wasn't so much I felt hurt but I was creeped out by some of the attitudes guys held and the descriptions of behaviors from these guys combined their lack of awareness of how terrifying and misognistic their actions can be in the eyes of a woman. Some of the threads come off as really incel-ly. That type of attitude is like an automatic red flag imo if I were to be on a date with a guy. 

28 minutes ago, MrBON said:

@Leo Gura @modmyth It would be a good idea to actually explain it to the self biased people here instead of just saying "you guys have no idea about the struggles girls face" all the time. A self biased person fails to see this and needs some points to start thinking.

A lot of our struggles revolve around the topic of physical and emotional safety. You can see this when you compare the answers guys and girls give when they talk about what their worst date was. Often times, a guys definition of a really bad date can be turned into a funny anecdote about how awkward and bizarre a situation was. A girls definition of a really bad date can look like a scenario out of a crime drama where she could've gotten raped or killed. 

And before anyone comes here and starts talking about "not all men," I'm just going to say that there is still a power dynamic between the treatment men and women in society. Not only that, guys can be much larger than us and physically threaten us more. We see so many stories about women getting assaulted after she rejected a weird guy or she refused to go on a second date. We see so many stories of women getting physically and emotionally hurt by guys whether it be in the news or someone close to us. We all have had to deal with some type of bullshit from guys or at the very least know a dozen people who have. To be a woman is to be constantly be on guard, whether it is walking in a parking lot or going on a date with a guy you swiped right on in tinder.

Here is a brief list of things I consider before and during on a date: 

• Does he creep me out? What is my gut feeling saying? 
• Does he have a bad attitude towards women and is entitled to sex? 
• If he does have a bad or entitled attitude, is it so extreme to the point I need to be vigilant about him drugging me or raping me?
• If I met a guy on tinder, I'm going to send a screenshot of his profile to my friend and show a picture of what I am wearing just in case this turns out badly. 
• Do I have pepper spray on me? 
• Is he a narcissist or someone who doesn't respect my physical or emotional boundaries? 
• Will he emotionally manipulate me? Do I see any manipulation tactics coming from him? 
• What is my exit strategy if things get weird? Can I call a friend or go up to a near by woman to signal that something is wrong? 
• I need to constantly keep an eye on my drink if I have one. I have numerous friends who have gotten drugged at parties before. 

And that's not even taking into consideration on whether I like a guy or not or if I'm enjoying myself. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[MrBON]

@soos_mite_ah Good points. I do agree with you. Are you sure you are not being a bit paranoid though? I personally never heard of girls being threatened in dates but the fear of rape while walking home at night is quite real. I lived in a city with plenty of aggresive street dogs during the night and the idea of not being calm while walking on specific streets is quite fucked up.

The emotional manipulating thing i mean, most girls are highly intuitive so it should be easy to tell it right? I also find that girls kinda like those kind of guys since they find them interesting and unique, not plain or boring. 

Anything else you would like to add?

Thank you for your reply

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, MrBON said:

It would be a good idea to actually explain it

Yeah, but I'm tired of explaining the obvious to people who don't even care about truth.

[soos_mite_ah]

38 minutes ago, MrBON said:

@soos_mite_ah Good points. I do agree with you. Are you sure you are not being a bit paranoid though?

If you think we are being paranoid, then you aren't fully empathizing to the female experience. We get called paranoid until something bad happens to us. When something bad happens to us, the script is flipped and suddenly we are to blame for not being careful enough or for asking for it. 

40 minutes ago, MrBON said:

 I personally never heard of girls being threatened in dates but the fear of rape while walking home at night is quite real. I lived in a city with plenty of aggresive street dogs during the night and the idea of not being calm while walking on specific streets is quite fucked up.

It may not be overt threats but we do pick up signs and red flags. Also rape being this thing that happens in dark alley ways is not entirely true. You are much more likely to be raped by a guy whos name and face you know. 

41 minutes ago, MrBON said:

The emotional manipulating thing i mean, most girls are highly intuitive so it should be easy to tell it right?

Most girls are regular people. We aren't these highly intuitive beings that can read everyone's emotions and intentions at the drop of the hat. The whole point of manipulation is that it isn't going to be clear as day. Unless you are hella weird and do a piss poor job at trying manipulate a girl, there are some girls that will fall for bat shit crazy antics. 

43 minutes ago, MrBON said:

I also find that girls kinda like those kind of guys since they find them interesting and unique, not plain or boring. 

Mainly the ones that are inexperienced, really naive, or have a lot of internalized misogny to where they don't recognize how badly they are being treated and think this is the norm. Also like men who are attracted to toxic women, women can also be attracted to toxic men because of trauma. Also there is this thing where girls don't want to say no to guys because society sees us having standards as being bitchy and asking for too much, because society thinks we are crazy when we feel something in our gut that says something is wrong, after all he is "such a good guy", and because sometimes we are straight up terrified of what a guy might do to us. 

[MrBON]

@soos_mite_ah

48 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Most girls are regular people. We aren't these highly intuitive beings that can read everyone's emotions and intentions at the drop of the hat. The whole point of manipulation is that it isn't going to be clear as day. Unless you are hella weird and do a piss poor job at trying manipulate a girl, there are some girls that will fall for bat shit crazy antics. 

Guys can get manipulated too you know, actually i might say they get more. Thing is that i said girls like that because girls are more intuitive than guys. Therefore the chance of a male being manipulated by a female is higher or at least equal.

49 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

You are much more likely to be raped by a guy whos name and face you know. 

Scary shit.

 

I mean Ty Lee, yeah that is a struggle for sure. However i do not understand that frustration that girls had on the comment section of the video the topic starter posted. They were saying "we should be perfect for guys etc". Personally i rarely see guys very picky with girls and if they are it is like 1/20 guys, majority are super modest. Idk my sample size might be weird but i do not understand the outrage i saw there. 

[soos_mite_ah]

1 hour ago, MrBON said:

However i do not understand that frustration that girls had on the comment section of the video the topic starter posted. They were saying "we should be perfect for guys etc". Personally i rarely see guys very picky with girls and if they are it is like 1/20 guys, majority are super modest. Idk my sample size might be weird but i do not understand the outrage i saw there. 

I think there are two things at play here. 

First of all, there is a historical context that needs to be considered. Especially for women, we get lectured about what will attract a man, what will keep a man etc. all the time. If he cheats, you must have done something. Maybe it's because you don't cook that well and now he wants to go fuck a stripper.  Oh you have a more androgenous style? You will never get  a guy go put on some makeup. No no not that much, now you look like a clown and a whore that men will think is too easy. You won't get respect like that.  

There is a lot of bullshit that is told to women about the exact way to act, talk, and dress. I watched the video that the original poster put up and it seemed like pretty harmless advice but I can also understand the undertones some women can pick up. So sometimes, it strikes at that particular collective wound. 

 

Second, I see a pattern with people who have had problems with relationships and attraction over a number of years. Being a woman I know a lot of women who have had issues with finding a quality guy. After getting on this site and reading some of these threads, I found some parallels with what some men complain about. 

Men on this forum: God women have it so easy, they can get laid any time. They don't need to put any effort. It's not a problem for women to sleep around and attract a lot of men. 

Women I have met: God men have it so easy, they can get laid any time. They don't need to put any effort. It's not a problem for men to sleep around and attract a lot of women. 

I'm going to be honest, often times, men or women, attracting someone has to do with timing and putting yourself out there in various social situations.  I know that it is super cheesy, seems waaay too simple, and can seem dismissive and aggravating to someone who is frustrated and as a result feeling impatient but it's true. Sometimes there is absolutely nothing wrong with you but because you keep obsessing and getting neurotic about it, then you actually start having problems and start having self esteem issues, victim complexes, incel ideology, start shutting yourself in etc. It can turn into a self fulfilling profecy real quick

Personally, I'm 21 years old, I have yet to even have my first kiss much less lose my virginity. I have been on a couple dates here and there but I haven't really clicked with anyone. And I have had times where I thought there was something really wrong with me. Maybe it's because I'm *insert any trait/ circumstance* but then I see *insert any trait/ circumstance* people get into relationships. Then I was like, hey maybe it's just not my time and I stopped obsessing about it, which in turn helped me be more confident and reduce the resistance I had to a situation. In order to attract something, a situation, or someone, you need to release your attachment and your resistance to what you're trying to manifest. I know that is easier said than done and I can see why it would be in some ways even more frustrating as a man if you lack experience because society puts in emphasis on attracting and sleeping with a lot of women and ties it to notions of masculinity. While I'm all for being more open about sex and sexuality, I think it's messed up to judge someone based on their experience or lack there of regardless of gender which can come with all sorts of notions and double standards. Sex isn't a big deal and by that I don't mean that if you're not sleeping around and not going crazy that there is something wrong with you rather I mean that whatever choices you have made or however life and it's timing has worked out for you, it doesn't matter as long as everything is safe and consensual. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[MrBON]

@soos_mite_ah

11 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Women I have met: God men have it so easy, they can get laid any time. They don't need to put any effort. It's not a problem for men to sleep around and attract a lot of women. 

Having to talk to like 50 girls to get 1 to like you is not "no effort". I dont like when girls refer to the model looking super charming guys as the base when that is like 5 percent of guys max. Most guys have to talk to a lot of girls to get 1 of them so it is hard work.

11 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Personally, I'm 21 years old, I have yet to even have my first kiss much less lose my virginity. I have been on a couple dates here and there but I haven't really clicked with anyone. And I have had times where I thought there was something really wrong with me.

Are you very shy? Are you emotionally cold, not touchy, dont smile etc? I do not want to sound like a jerk but guys can be picky about looks but if you are at least okay looking then it should not be an issue.

I have a few female friends that struggle with guys but that is because they are very cold. If you give a lot of compliments, smile a lot, touch and talk about dirty things guys will start getting attracted to you.

[soos_mite_ah]

38 minutes ago, MrBON said:

Having to talk to like 50 girls to get 1 to like you is not "no effort". I dont like when girls refer to the model looking super charming guys as the base when that is like 5 percent of guys max. Most guys have to talk to a lot of girls to get 1 of them so it is hard work.

I have never met a guy in person who had to talk to like 50 girls to get 1 to like them. The only place I have heard this and the so called numbers game is this forum and reddit. Granted I hang out with other women most of the time and the loudest most obnoxious guys are usually the ones that get noticed most often if that makes sense. And I'm not even talking about guys who look like models. I have met men who look like they are one cigarette away from dying, is mentally a mess, and looks like he lives in a trailer park and he has numerous women who swoon after him. There is such a wide spectrum of what girls prefer to where I don't even understand why some girls are attracted to some guys. When I say looks don't matter as much as you think it does, I really mean that. I have seen so many pretty girls who go out with guys who don't even know what it means to exfoliate and look like he hasn't washed his hair in a month. Like to me that is the epitome of straight woman shit. 

I'm pretty sure there is a version of that for men since there is a wide variety of things a guy might find attractive, from short girls, to tall girls, to really skinny girls, to girls who are much thicker, and every thing else in between but girls assume that guys want a super model. We obsess about our bodies and get insecure about details that guys wouldn't bother to scrutinize.  Like we maybe insecure of that one stretch mark we have or how are boobs don't look like a porn stars and we may think that we are unfuckable because of that but I'm pretty sure guys don't care and if they see a naked woman they aren't going to nitpick at her body the same way that she might. I have watched a video of a guy fucking a McDonald's chicken sandwich before and ever since then I stopped caring about what guys think of me looks wise because a lot of them are probably not looking for much. 

Same with guys. I've seen guys on here who I think are attractive but because I guess they aren't the "male model" type, they underestimate themselves and then that lack of confidence manifests when they want to go out and date. And then that lack of confidence is what sabotages them, not their lack of facial hair or their big nose. 

You don't need much to get a date for either gender. All you need to do is have basic social skills, not act like a psychopath, and have a couple hobbies and interests so yall can talk about something together as a medium to connect. Once you have all that, go out and talk to people.  

54 minutes ago, MrBON said:

Are you very shy? Are you emotionally cold, not touchy, dont smile etc? I do not want to sound like a jerk but guys can be picky about looks but if you are at least okay looking then it should not be an issue.

Not shy, just a homebody. I can come off as a little emotionally cold and detached but I'm also really bubbly irl. I do smile and laugh a lot and unfortunately people assume that I'm crazy, fake, or delusional for looking happy all the time . As far as touchiness goes, I'm super comfortable with touch but I'm never the one that initiates because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. If someone is touchy with me, I don't mind doing the same right back. As far as looks goes, I'm super average looking. I mean I think I'm pretty and I like the way I look but I'm pretty sure most people think that I'm just ok.  

Eh, I don't put too much effort into dating. I have other things in my life going on. I grew up ugly so because of that I have made peace with the possibility of dying alone. I'm neutral towards it. If I find a partner that's great. But if I die alone with a bunch of cats, that great too lol . 

[LordFall]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but I'm tired of explaining the obvious to people who don't even care about truth.

Do you have any resources you recommend on that? I saw the book on your booklist and I'll definitely get it eventually, anything else?

Edited January 8, 2021 by LordFall

[MrBON]

@soos_mite_ah

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Eh, I don't put too much effort into dating. I have other things in my life going on. I grew up ugly so because of that I have made peace with the possibility of dying alone. I'm neutral towards it. If I find a partner that's great. But if I die alone with a bunch of cats, that great too lol 

WTF lol. Pretty sure there should be some decent guys for you. Being sexual does wonders for guys, most would pick a normal girl over a hot girl if the normal girl made it easier for them, if you know what i mean. I am sounding like a huge jerk but this is how guys think. They are like: this okay looking girl likes me, i should either get with her or try to hit on the hot girl that will 99 percent turn me down. Ah fuck it, the okay girl it is.

This is how most normal guys think. Some of the more actualized ones will care for personality a lot more than the average basic guys and that you have control over. Act like Ty Lee, guys like that behavior attraction wise. The top guys will like a hot girl with great personality but those guys are minority so no need to think about them.

Going to gym and skin care does wonders for most girls though looks wise.

[soos_mite_ah]

6 hours ago, MrBON said:

@soos_mite_ah

WTF lol. Pretty sure there should be some decent guys for you.

I mean I know they exist, but I'm pretty sure it's a timing thing tbh. 

6 hours ago, MrBON said:

Being sexual does wonders for guys, most would pick a normal girl over a hot girl if the normal girl made it easier for them, if you know what i mean. 

Yeah that isn't really my style. Aint nothing wrong with it but personally, I don't want to have sex outside of a committed relationship or do anything sexual before actually getting to know someone for a couple of months.

6 hours ago, MrBON said:

Ah fuck it, the okay girl it is.

Not really into that attitude. I would rather have a guy enthusiastically and authentically like me and find me attractive rather than seeing me as settling or as a second option. I personally don't settle because I believe that is disrespectful to my time and his and is deceptive because you lead someone you don't have much interest in on.  Plus, even if this is the case where I'm hypothetically just hooking up with someone, I'm pretty sure the sex would be hotter and more satisfying if neither party was giving up their standards/ desires when it comes to what they look for someone physically. 

6 hours ago, MrBON said:

This is how most normal guys think. Some of the more actualized ones will care for personality a lot more than the average basic guys and that you have control over. Act like Ty Lee, guys like that behavior attraction wise. The top guys will like a hot girl with great personality but those guys are minority so no need to think about them.

I'll just wait to encounter one of the more actualized ones. I've have gone 21 years without kissing any frogs and having little to no headaches with guys, I can wait longer with no problem. I guess in a way I'm like Ty Lee in the sense I can be bubbly, generally really nice, and good with people but I guess I give off too much of a sweet and innocent vibe that can be annoying for some people who are just trying to get laid and move on hahaha. Eh, their loss. Idc. I'm not chasing and obsessing. I'm just living my life, minding my own business, and finding random things, topics, and people who interests me.  

Edited January 9, 2021 by soos_mite_ah