The outside world exists.

[Endangered-EGO]

Either I don't understand it or some people have a weird solipsistic-idealism worldview.

You do know that when you die, your family will continue to live and the world you leave behind will still be. Or don't you believe that? Don't you guys believe that we live on a physical plane?

People who say when you die, everything ends, is from the non-ego perspective, because all experience cease to exist. That doesn't mean everything dies literally.

Other people don't exist, doesn't mean they are soulless meat-robots, but that the ego made the illusions of a self in other people with a story etc. They do exist and have souls/egos.

From the world of formlessness you can use perceive everything as empty, but it might not be a metaphysical truth, just a perceptual experience.

Maybe I am misunderstood: People exist, but our ego gives them a story. People seem to not-exist when realising that oneself doesn't exist. That's it. I think this needs clarification.
The fact that the world is a dream and empty doesn't mean the forms don't exist.

[Javfly33]

what you call physical reality is just Consciousness holding in his imagination objects and persons.

The problem with calling it physical reality is that it implies that it's objetive or an object outside of consciousness. And of course that is not the case 

Physical reality is actually Consciousness morfing into forms and objects for infinity. And you are that 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Javfly33

[seeking_brilliance]

Probably depends on Who you ask... 

[Adamq8]

There is the assumption that there is something that is " physical" reality.

Your perceptions makes it so.

Everything is in constant movement and fluctuates and the atoms which an object consist of is mostly empty. 

Pure energy.

The same energy which manifest a star is the same manifesting a human. 

Our nervous system is set up in a way that we perceive an object as solid.

But look at what scientist say about the Light spectrum, we can perceive like 0.4 % of all the Energy and Light available, some scientist even claim that the " physical" universe that we can study is less then 4 % of the totality of Energy that moves around us.

Thats why when we take a psychedelic you change your nervous system somehow and different spectrums of light gets available,  like on lsd,  fractals and different lights. 

The body only shows us what it has been programmed to view for its survival. 

The universe is VAST.

The realms of conciousness is VAST as well.

Even tho our interpretation of the world is extremely limited,  we can sometimes transcend that limitation and see the non dual of the cosmos and even recognize that everything is GOD.

 

[DLH]

The question should be, “What is Real”?

Who and what decides to define “Real”?

Is Consciousness “Real”?

If it is, then what is “Not Real”?

If consciousness, on the other hand, isn’t "Real", then who and what are we?

 

Food for thought!

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

That doesn't mean everything dies literally.

Hehehe....

Yes, it does. Since things only exist when you imagine they do. And you will stop imagining the outer world at some point.

You might as well argue that dream characters exist after you wake up.

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You might as well argue that dream characters exist after you wake up.

They very well could 

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

They very well could 

Haha

Only if you're dreaming

[North Sea]

Of course dream chars exist even when you wake up. If reality is Infinity everything already exists right now.

[Bodhitree]

Well, in order to survive, we need to act as if the outside world exists. If you were a farmer, you would need to plow and seed your fields in order to harvest next year. If you were an engineer, you would need to buy ore, smelt it, cast it and then machine it in order to build a car which you could drive across the country. 
 

If the world was exactly as you imagined it, why is it not a kind of paradise? Instead we have orca’s eating seals, bears eating salmon, all kinds of big animals eating little animals. Except perhaps cows, who are wise and eat grass. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Bodhitree said:

Well, in order to survive, we need to act as if the outside world exists. If you were a farmer, you would need to plow and seed your fields in order to harvest next year.

Not true.

You can be a farmer while conscious that your farm and the people it feeds are imaginary.

You can dream consciously. That's the point of enlightenment.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming. The only problem is when you get so lost in your dreams you forget they are dreams.

[zeroISinfinity]

@Bodhitree lol survival. 

 

[Bodhitree]

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can dream consciously. That’s the point of enlightenment.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Bodhitree
It seems I can’t edit this empty post

[Bodhitree]

30 minutes ago, zeroISinfinity said:

@Bodhitree lol survival. 

 

Yes I know, but Maslow’s hierarchy of needs indicates we need to look after such things before doing the big stuff. 

[Star]

8 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

Other people don't exist, doesn't mean they are soulless meat-robots, but that the ego made the illusions of a self in other people with a story etc. They do exist and have souls/egos.

 

That's exactly what I'm looking for lattely...

Cause real weird stuff are happening...

I wonder how I haven't lost my mind and I still continue to act like a normal human being...

 

[Star]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Not true.

You can be a farmer while conscious that your farm and the people it feeds are imaginary.

You can dream consciously. That's the point of enlightenment.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming. The only problem is when you get so lost in your dreams you forget they are dreams.

It's such a turn off Leo... a deal breaker... 

I don't know if you experience it....I know I do and if this is truly the case... then.... at least I'll work hard to have a really funny life, with rainbows and roses that I love and the sound of the rain that I adore and people who are happy and even unicorns

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Star said:

if this is truly the case... then.... at least I'll work hard to have a really funny life, with rainbows and roses that I love and the sound of the rain that I adore and people who are happy and even unicorns

There's not much else to do once you've realized you're dreaming but to just enjoy it

[BipolarGrowth]

This writing I did the other day might help you understand. 

If you don’t read the rest, at least read this:

A reality can only exist within you (consciousness). Something is only real to you if it is held within your consciousness. No realities exist outside of the one you are experiencing right now. This waking state planet Earth does not exist when you are in a dream. Your wife could tell you that the world still existed while you were asleep, but you have to see how this is exactly the same as if your dream wife told you the dream reality was there while you were asleep. It means nothing because you as consciousness were not there. That seems to be the pattern in what we can verify between both the waking state and dreams.

Here’s the total writing:

Solving the mind-body problem by understanding dreams

When you go to sleep at night, you often find yourself in dreams. In these dreams, most people will still have a human body. In waking reality, there is an unsubstantiated claim or story given by people that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain. The experts aren’t so sure, or at least they don’t have any solid evidence. Look up the “hard problem of consciousness” to understand how this is unsubstantiated. In the dream, you typically do not think along the same lines. If you were to lucid dream, you would certainly not think you were the dream body or somehow generated by the brain in your dream head. I say you, but I need to clarify exactly who you are. 

You are consciousness. Consciousness is the only constant you can find in all realities. In the dream, you are literally everything perceived in the dream. It’s all generated by your consciousness. We understand fully that everything created in our dreams comes entirely from us and is an extension of us. Surprisingly enough, there’s no solid argument against this being exactly the same case in waking reality. Your brain, body, and mind are all generated by consciousness in the same fashion consciousness generates the entire reality in dreams. Beyond your mind, body, and brain, you as consciousness generate this entire reality. This entire reality IS consciousness and nothing else. It’s the same way in a dream nothing is separate from you as consciousness. You as consciousness are the sole source for everything in the dream. No one thinks everyone in their dreams are conscious, separate entities once they’ve come back to the waking state. It’s the same in this reality. 

There’s absolutely no way you can actually be shown something outside of your consciousness. There will never ever be proof that other beings are conscious separately or outside of your consciousness. Even if you merged consciousness with another being in the waking state as a way to somehow prove the existence of another consciousness, guess what it would be? It would be fully engulfed in exactly one thing: you as consciousness or otherwise put your consciousness. You are the source of everything that exists in your consciousness, and your consciousness is the entirety of your universe and always will be. Nothing can ever exist outside of your consciousness. Existence relies completely on perception and consciousness to even be relevant. What is the difference between a fairytale land in a book, the black void people typically conceive of as nothingness or nonexistence, and a reality you imagine exists like heaven? They’re all just imagination. The only thing that’s real is what you can experience in this very moment. As soon as something exits consciousness, it exits existence. There’s no proof for something existing outside of consciousness, and there never will be because the most fundamental building block in any proof is, you guessed it, consciousness. Before using reason or logic or any other conceptual tool to prove something you use precisely one thing first: consciousness. 

Even if you and I are both conscious entities, we live in completely different “universes of consciousness.” Precisely, that is to say that one consciousness can never be shown another consciousness to exist without perceiving the other consciousness through the lens of the original consciousness. As soon as one consciousness comes into the other, the secondary consciousness immediately becomes an aspect of the primary consciousness. So if you were to completely merge your consciousness with mine, your consciousness would be held within my consciousness, and it would be the same for you if the process were done from your perspective. This is a clear mechanic of consciousness. We can never know if the person sitting across the lunch table from us is conscious. We can only assume one way or the other. 

Anything imagined to be separate from the perspective of the original consciousness will always just be one more aspect of the original consciousness. In this way, we are entirely alone as consciousness. We are not alone as human beings. There are plenty of humans walking around. You can clearly perceive that, but by the very nature of perception, consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness without it immediately becoming another aspect of itself. Consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness as some sort of separate thing. Once the “other” consciousness is viewed, it only exists as long as it is in contact with the primary consciousness - the point of perception, and it is only truly the primary consciousness the entire time. In this way, you can never truly share space with another consciousness. You cannot perceive another consciousness. 

Anything you perceive is just you. You are consciousness. Everything is you. Everything is consciousness. It will be this way for eternity. You as consciousness will likely visit innumerable dreamt up worlds that you’ve created. You’ll perceive yourself as some kind of avatar or character as far as we can tell. You’ll at first see all the rest of the characters in your dreamt up creation as separate from you, but in truth those dream characters are just as much you as your primary character is. They’re just characters held within consciousness. One, your primary character who you at first feel to live inside, simply exists in your consciousness more of the time than the others. Ultimately neither the other characters or your perceived primary character is you because you are the consciousness that permeates all aspects of the dream world including its laws of physics, characters, objects, and everything else. You aren’t the characters any more than you are the objects or the laws of motion that govern that reality. You are all aspects of that reality. You are all aspects of all realities. 

A reality can only exist within you. Something is only real to you if it is held within your consciousness. No realities exist outside of the one you are experiencing right now. This waking state planet Earth does not exist when you are in a dream. Your wife could tell you that the world still existed while you were asleep, but you have to see how this is exactly the same as if your dream wife told you the dream reality was there while you were asleep. It means nothing because you as consciousness were not there. That seems to be the pattern in what we can verify between both the waking state and dreams.

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura 2 things:

1. Am I the only dreamer on this physical plane? Or is everyone dreaming up their own reality in an infinite amount of parallel universes? I assume you don't believe that the other people are empty shelves.

Awakening certainly seems like reality is a dream, and I (ego) tried to change the dream, that of course doesn't work for me.

The I that dreams, is this a collective dream where everyone influences a certain part of the dream, or does every soul just dreams something else?

2. If the dream ends when you die, you shouldn't take precautions about your own death, no need to tell your family good bye, no need to keep a small (or big) inheritance for your children. Physical death might not be stopping the collective dream either.

 

9 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This is a clear mechanic of consciousness. We can never know if the person sitting across the lunch table from us is conscious. We can only assume one way or the other. 

So it's either this physical plane is Gods dream limiting itself to this character within the dream, or God limits itself to all the separate entities within the dream.

Now Leo claims that it is possible to consciously manipulate the dream, but isn't that what is already happening. The I that wants to manipulate the dream is always part of the dream that is dreamt by the higher self. So this would explain why it's not possible for the dream character to lucid dream, it's just possible for the awakened I. But the awakened self doesn't want anything, it already has everything it wants right? 

So full enlightenment might not make you so okay with the dream that you don't even desire/think to change the dream, because the lower self would have to be perfectly aligned with the higher self.

[Endangered-EGO]

@Bodhitree Well it is kind of exactly how I would imagine it. Really funny if you think about it. I would make a world where little creatures play all the time. We have these tiny humans that do different things someone works with teeths (dentists), someone works with eyes, someone works with food, someone works with children, they live in tiny boxes and imitate each other all the time.