Shroom headaches Physical or conceptual?

[4201]

Everytime I do shrooms (more precisely 4-AcO-DMT), I suffer a pretty bad headache afterwards. It doesn't prevent me from doing them, as I still consider that a good tradeoff. But it's bothersome.

I don't want to misquote him but @Nahm previously said something along the lines of the pain doesn't come from any physical factors but rather from having a "self come back" and that being painful. While my direct experience did not lead to this conclusion, I really wished and still wish it is true. It would be so great that none of that pain has any physical consequences and I could just avoid it by remaining present.

I tried very hard last time to achieve that. But the headache still came and it's always at the same timing, pretty much when the medicine starts to come down. I realized no-self and stopped all thoughts at a moment during peak but I didn't manage to do that a second time during the headache period. I really tried though.

Now with this inconclusive attempt I still have no idea if fully being present/re-realizing no-self during  the headache phase would have stopped the headache, but I at least got an opportunity to contemplate the feeling of pain. At some point it was like 8 nails going through my head and overall I would qualify this feeling of very "physical". Maybe that's just me fooling myself though.

This whole idea of a pain to which I can't pinpoint what's going on is quite fishy to begin with. When I was a child I had headaches once in a while (strangely doesn't happen anymore) and I never really figured out why it happened. Suggestions like "you are hungry/thirsty" would be thrown at me and I really didn't have a better explanation on why I had a headache anyway.

Since the relation between the headache and the body is fuzzy, the idea that headaches are entirely conceptual has some merit. But what kind of concept only "hurts" when I'm coming down from shrooms (and not LSD)? This idea that the headache is a result of holding a painful idea like a self is "a nice idea" but no matter how I try to look at it, it doesn't add up. Especially since I don't ever get headaches otherwise.

If you've overcame shroom headaches in the past, please let me know. I'd love to hear your story.

[4201]

@Nahm You probably already knew this but... I'm happy to say I was wrong! No more headaches on shrooms for me 

[peanutspathtotruth]

@4201 It's so interesting to read this - I experience these headaches as well, especially when a lot of purification is involved, but I also had been having them being sober for a very long time. I found it so fascinating, but also frustrating that I could never make out if it was physical or energetical and/or both in its nature. I spent a whole meditation retreat almost exclusively inquiring into this pain. I now think that it is mostly energetical and has to do with blockages in the third eye. That's what it feels like, even without believing in chakras or anything. It feels like something can't flow. And I also tend to think that the physical pain is part of it as well, but that it is caused by the energetic blockage. 
 

45 minutes ago, 4201 said:

No more headaches on shrooms for me 

That's amazing  If they do come back though - I don't think it is accurate or helpful to think that a headache is telling you you're doing something wrong or lost the realization or whatever. Please don't feel bad when it happens 

[Nahm]

@4201

Great to hear. ?? 

[4201]

2 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

@4201 It's so interesting to read this - I experience these headaches as well, especially when a lot of purification is involved, but I also had been having them being sober for a very long time. I found it so fascinating, but also frustrating that I could never make out if it was physical or energetical and/or both in its nature. I spent a whole meditation retreat almost exclusively inquiring into this pain. I now think that it is mostly energetical and has to do with blockages in the third eye. That's what it feels like, even without believing in chakras or anything. It feels like something can't flow. And I also tend to think that the physical pain is part of it as well, but that it is caused by the energetic blockage. 
 

That's amazing  If they do come back though - I don't think it is accurate or helpful to think that a headache is telling you you're doing something wrong or lost the realization or whatever. Please don't feel bad when it happens 

While I agree you shouldn't guilt yourself over feeling pain, this pain can be a wonderful guide. Those headaches are not forever gone for me, but it indicates me whether I'm actually connected with feeling and truth or just pretending. Whenever I feel it again, I can just stop and let go of the thoughts that are causing it. The more I let go the less I feel it. 

Accepting that this pain is an indicator of unawakening can be difficult it we want to continue to believe we are awake. I think it's best just to accept we aren't awake and not feeling bad over that fact. After all we can't wake up if we assume we are already awake. That doesn't mean we "lose" the realizations we make, we simply get lost into other new thought stories, that need to be let go as well.

In the end you are on your own path and you'll figure out what will be true for you. At first for me Nahm's idea of the headache "not being real" seemed like wishful thinking. But then after realizing that pain is a thought, the idea of a pain being unavoidable is ridiculous.

Edited January 12, 2021 by 4201

[peanutspathtotruth]

@4201 I see what you mean, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Of course it's important not to fall into clinging to the idea of being awake. I'm not sure if that was directly connected to what I was pointing at, because I didn't really imply any of that. While pain can be self generated and surrendering is always the best option, I don't see what you mean by saying that pain being unavoidable would be ridiculous. There is pain that won't go away, no matter how surrendered one is. Why would it be directly connected to believing one is awake? And why would it automatically mean that one is unawakened. You can be completely enlightened and feel intense pain having no correlation to your level of consciousness whatsoever. The difference is of course how the pain is related to then. I hope that makes sense. Just want to clear up confusions about what was said before if I understood you right

[4201]

1 hour ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

@4201 I see what you mean, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Of course it's important not to fall into clinging to the idea of being awake. I'm not sure if that was directly connected to what I was pointing at, because I didn't really imply any of that. While pain can be self generated and surrendering is always the best option, I don't see what you mean by saying that pain being unavoidable would be ridiculous. There is pain that won't go away, no matter how surrendered one is. Why would it be directly connected to believing one is awake? And why would it automatically mean that one is unawakened. You can be completely enlightened and feel intense pain having no correlation to your level of consciousness whatsoever. The difference is of course how the pain is related to then. I hope that makes sense. Just want to clear up confusions about what was said before if I understood you right

Peter Ralston does a great job of deconstructing pain in his book of not knowing. Long story short there's a difference between the sensation of pain (skin being torn, bones being broken etc.) and pain. The sensation of pain is only painful after the sensations are being interpreted into something bad for you. There cannot be pain without resisting a sensation or something else. 

For instance, if you are fully awake and fully aware that a vaccine will boost your immune system, it will not be painful to receive it. In Ralston book of not knowing, he describe how he got a dental cavity fixed and refused to get analgesia because he wanted to contemplate the sensation of pain. 

It's pretty normal however to dislike a sensation of getting cut or any other way in which your body gets damaged. IMO, if you are fully awake (e.g. no thoughts) there can only be the sensation of pain since pain is a thought. Pain is not necessary in the end. Consciousness alone is enough to get your body out of any undesired situation.

But hey that's just the way I see things right now. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? If you want to know the truth you can only get it by yourself. No matter how convincing or unconvincing I am, we aren't going anywhere with this. And my headache is coming back, probably because I'm being way to pretentious 

[Nahm]

@4201

Great inspection work man. It is amazing how exploring the subtle nuances can make such changes to the overall experience. 

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 hour ago, 4201 said:

The sensation of pain is only painful after the sensations are being interpreted into something bad for you.

I see where you were going now, I fully agree! Bit of a word game, what I labeled pain you label the sensation of pain, what you label pain I usually call suffering. 

I read the book and remember the dentist story, pretty cool ?? 

[4201]

@Nahm Thanks! I don't think I would have challenged the shroom headaches without you. There's scientific studies stating it happens in approximately 30% of people and there is links to similarly shaped molecules that are used as headache medicine. It would have been really easy for me to just "blame the shrooms" and accept the headache as a part of my brain's reaction to them or as a property of the molecule itself. The only thing that made me doubt my explanation is your previous comment. It is indeed amazing and it really begs the question, what else do I just assume to be true that might not be the case? Problably a heck load of things and every one of those things is gonna be a bliss to find out 

@peanutspathtotruth I agree that's a better way to name them.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by 4201

[Nahm]

23 minutes ago, 4201 said:

what else do I just assume to be true that might not be the case?

? Best question in human history.  

[zeroISinfinity]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

? Best question in human history.  

Thought it was what is older chicken or egg? 

[zeroISinfinity]

Answer:Awareness is prior to.... Spirituality... 

[Loving Radiance]

On 5.1.2021 at 5:34 AM, 4201 said:

If you've overcame shroom headaches in the past, please let me know. I'd love to hear your story.

I now drink at least 2 liters during the trip and also drink more water than usual the following days.

Maybe that changes in the future but for now it works.