dark side of meditation question

[levani]

this part at 26:13

he says these angels/demons might actually come before you and actually be there

this is basically my biggest fear at the moment and it puts me off

does he mean it will happen as an experience just like when i am typing this message on this keyboard, this type of experience? he says "in real life" / "actually there"

if it does arise, how do i deal with it, cause i think it will fuck me up ROYALLY if i ever experience anything like this
 

also at 30;08
if the dark night of the soul and depersonalisation arise - how does one deal with it ? i can't just not react to it, it's absolutely terrifying to me...

 

is there any books you recommend so i can be prepared for them?

 

i've asked this question before but after rewatching the video - Leo definitely said it happens "in real life" - this freaks me out and drives me away from doing meditation

[Nyseto]

I have no idea man. Meditation to me is just abiding as awareness. I don't know why he would mention angels and devils appearing before you.

[Sagar Takker]

27 minutes ago, levani said:

if it does arise, how do i deal with it, cause i think it will fuck me up ROYALLY if i ever experience anything like this

Whatever may come up in meditation may come up in life anyway too. The experience of a demon may arise anyway too.

Ultimately, the question is how do you deal with fear, how do you deal with the feeling/emotion present in that moment. If it happens to me, I would sit and witness it with all my awareness and put all my effort to be as emotionally imperturbable as I can. Whatever emotion will come up, I'll observe it and let it go.

Also, having some adage that reminds you that all that you experience is just consciousness or 'an illusion' can be of help.
For example, Verse 18, Chapter 1 from Ashtavakra Gita:

Sakaram anritam vidhi, nirakaram tu nishchalam.

Which translates to,

Know that which has form to be unreal and the formless to be permanent.

One way to deal with fear is to become willing to experience what you fear. Requires courage. But does the work. Often, we are looking for a way to deal with something without actually dealing with it. The way to deal with it is to deal with it.

 

40 minutes ago, levani said:

if the dark night of the soul and depersonalisation arise - how does one deal with it ? i can't just not react to it, it's absolutely terrifying to me...

You ask how does one deal with it... Dealing with it would require you to face it, right? There is no other way to do this.

So when you do face it, you will be 'absolutely terrified.' This much is certain.

Now what can you do?

You will either react or not react. Reacting will not help, not reacting will. It may seem like you can't control it but you can. Requires some effort, can't be bypassed.

[levani]

@Sagar Takker but if it requires effort that's already reacting to it, no ?

[Sagar Takker]

31 minutes ago, levani said:

@Sagar Takker but if it requires effort that's already reacting to it, no ?

Not reacting is like a skill. You have to practice it to get better at it. So initially, you will be reacting and putting effort to let go and be imperturbable.

If you are working on a specific issue, you might require to put a lot of effort to stay non-reactive and to keep observing and letting go. After a while, you'll notice that the issue doesn't trigger much reaction from within. That's a sign of progress. When you have completely let go of your entire mass of 'reactivity,' the issue will not trigger anything anymore. You will have become free of it completely. The issue will have become a non-issue.

Think of this practice like taking shots on a basket ball court. As a beginner, you'll miss many shots (you will keep reacting). But as you keep on taking shots, keep on practicing, your accuracy will get better.

 

[levani]

@Sagar Takker i will be reacting ∵ it will terrify me, right ?

so say i encounter a situation where fear arises, even though i am in fear, i should pretend that i am okay and that it's temporary or what ?

[Sagar Takker]

It's not about pretending.

When there is fear, feel it, observe it, be one with it. Let go of resisting it or wanting to change it. Be with it.

That's a much better way of dealing with any unwanted emotion. Anything else would be some version of suppression/repression, escaping or expression. Which don't work as effectively as allowing the feeling.

Refer to Letting Go by David Hawkins to learn more about this.

You can also look into EFT tapping. It can help you with releasing all kinds of unwanted emotions.

 

[Nahm]

@levani

Excellent advice from @Sagar Takker . 

I’d add so called fear is no more than thought attachment, you might say the mind ‘tricking’ itself into suppressing, avoiding...Self...no thing...”it’s”own source so to speak?.  Bringing sense of humor to this can help cut the tension / thought discord of repeating attachments (beliefs).

Many trips “to” no thing until there’s no one to ‘go to’ no thing anymore...and never the direct experience of another entity. However, apparently, some testify to what Leo said, that entities like demons etc are actual. Again, never encountered this, but just some suggestions that come to mind if you do...run the ‘filter’ of: thought, perception, feeling. ‘Break the experience down’ to what is actually, experience. If that still doesn’t cut it, demand that the “demon” tell you it’s name. Don’t accept any name. Repeatedly demand it say it’s true name, ‘who’ ‘it’ really is. ? Godspeed. Letting go of thoughts is ultimately (because nonduality is only surfaces, only appearances) the key. 

[levani]

3 hours ago, Sagar Takker said:

When there is fear, feel it, observe it, be one with it. Let go of resisting it or wanting to change it. Be with it.

yes, this is what i needed answered, thanks broski.

i can see the guy has some top books, will check him out

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

fear is no more than thought attachment

i think so too, but it's still kinda there innit.

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

Bringing sense of humor to this can help cut the tension / thought discord of repeating attachments (beliefs).

yeah, before when i got these terrifying thoughts, i'd imagine that the demon or whatever had like the most beautiful vagina and i'd just start fucking it from behind or something, associating it with something positive.

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

some testify to what Leo said, that entities like demons etc are actual

yeah this is mad strange, i think they mean consciousness not always increasing o decreasing in one axis, maybe in different axis if you increaseor decrease it too much, thoughts or fears somehow get projected, freaky stuff.

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

Don’t accept any name. Repeatedly demand it say it’s true name, ‘who’ ‘it’ really is

but it can keep lying no ? lol

i've never actually came cross one, it's always been my ego saying "what if"

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

Letting go of thoughts is ultimately (because nonduality is only surfaces, only appearances) the key. 

i fail to see that "objects/feelings" in reality are not thoughts ∵ fear feels real as fuck, suffering feels real too.

so it's one thing to type it behind a computer screen and another thing to be skinned alive (sorry for the disturbing image, lol)

[Nahm]

11 minutes ago, levani said:

but it can keep lying no ? lol

‘It’ will soon be laughing ‘with’ you. 

11 minutes ago, levani said:

i fail to see that "objects/feelings" in reality are not thoughts

Those are thoughts. 

Quote

∵ fear feels real as fuck, suffering feels real too.

Notice some thoughts align with the true nature, and some thought are in discord with your true nature. Choose wisely. 

Quote

so it's one thing to type it behind a computer screen and another thing to be skinned alive (sorry for the disturbing image, lol)

That’s a thought!

Rather than expressing a thought which is not aligned (reacting)...let it go.  Don’t be the chef who tastes every dish and sends all of them to the tables regardless of taste...serve only the aligned, sweet tasting true nature. Let those which do not ‘taste good to you’, go. 

[levani]

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

‘It’ will soon be laughing ‘with’ you. 

bro, you have to understand i'm not on your level yet, so when i say i don't understand, don't take it the wrong way

... i don't understand

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Those are thoughts. 

theoretically, not practically, if someone were to make you suffer now i'm not sure ofcourse but i doubt you could you'd be saying "they are thoughts", i seriously fail to see how you can resist pain so fully that you don't suffer at all and just call them thoughts, if that makes sense

according to pain x resistance = suffering

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Notice some thoughts align with the true nature, and some thought are in discord with your true nature. Choose wisely. 

i think i get this but could you expand a bit on this so i can fully understand

 

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

That’s a thought!

but what if it wasn't a thought ? what if you ACTUALLY IN EXPERIENCE stubbed your toe ?

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Let those which do not ‘taste good to you’, go. 

okay this is a really good analogy, but how do I "let go" ? according to the sagar, letting go = not resisting = feeling into it regardless

 

right ?

Edited January 5, 2021 by levani

[Nahm]

28 minutes ago, levani said:

bro, you have to understand i'm not on your level yet, so when i say i don't understand, don't take it the wrong way

I hear ya, and can appreciate that. Likewise, don’t ‘take this the wrong way’...but honestly, I’m not ‘on a level’ as you might believe, I am just not focused on thoughts that don’t resonate (like demons, etc). I also do not find ‘something to understand’, nor ‘understand something’. It can not honestly be said that I understand, because I is just another thought awareness is aware of. 

31 minutes ago, levani said:

theoretically, not practically, if someone were to make you suffer now i'm not sure ofcourse but i doubt you could you'd be saying "they are thoughts", i seriously fail to see how you can resist pain so fully that you don't suffer at all and just call them thoughts, if that makes sense

according to pain x resistance = suffering

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Yes, this makes sense. Look to perception & feeling for clarity....and physically point to this suffering. You’ll notice this can not be done, because it’s a thought.  The nature of the thought is about a you in a future suffering...it’s about what might happen...but the suffering is occurring right now, via the focusing on the thought. By suffering in this sense, I mean the true nature is (via feeling) responding with ‘nope, sorry, can’t go there’...but you’re focused on these thoughts in spite of the feeling of resistance, or discord, with the true nature. When there is pain, there is pain. When there is not pain, but a focus on thoughts about potential pain, that is mental anguish / suffering. 

38 minutes ago, levani said:

Notice some thoughts align with the true nature, and some thoughts are in discord with your true nature. Choose wisely. 

i think i get this but could you expand a bit on this so i can fully understand

Yes. Do not allow this to be ‘existential’ or ‘philosophical’. This is not about ‘something that’s happening in some other place or some other time’. This is in regard to NOW. The direct experience, NOW. Is there a demon or whatever else in your direct experience, NOW? No. There isn’t. What is directly experienced, is the thoughts about it. Keep it simple...you are focusing on the thoughts, NOW. How do those thoughts feel - great, or, not great? Clearly - not great. Focus instead on what does feel good, what does resonate with the true nature. That can be literally anything else. There is a momentum to this, and that momentum must be known in direct experience. That is, you must focus on what does feel good to you. When a perspective does not resonate, let it go (simply because it doesn’t feel good). Sometimes letting a perspective go equals realizing ‘I was wrong about that’. Being wrong, realizing ‘I was wrong about x’ is one of the greatest, most freeing feeling experiences. Similar, if not the same, as letting go of a belief. The more you ‘play this game’ of aligning thought with your true nature...the more Truth is realized...the more you are focused on what you do want - and the more you are creating that which you do want in your life.

47 minutes ago, levani said:

but what if it wasn't a thought ? what if you ACTUALLY IN EXPERIENCE stubbed your toe ?

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Humility shall set you free my good man. It is a thought. You are focusing on it. It does not feel good. There are infinite ‘what if’s’ you could be focusing on...so be a bit picky and focus on what feels good to you. 

You might say, you have the ‘voice of God’ within you, and ‘it’ ‘speaks’ in feeling, in resonance, aka alignment with it, or discord against it. Just ease up on yo self, and listen to the true nature. 

50 minutes ago, levani said:

okay this is a really good analogy, but how do I "let go" ? according to the sagar, letting go = not resisting = feeling into it regardless

Say (inwardly) “this is what is coming”...and let it. “this is what is going”...and let it. 

Yes, I agree with feeling into it, exploring the feeling. Not focusing more on the thought, but feeling ‘into the body’. The sensation, and the sensation.  ‘Find’ that fear in the body. Where exactly is it? What exactly is it? What is it’s shape? What color is it?  If the body releases some emotion....let it. 

You can also let go of thought, by focusing on perception & feeling. Walking Meditation outdoors is great for this, because there is a lot going on in perception & feeling, making it easier to focus on it. 

Another way to let a thought go is by focusing on any other thought or subject which feels good to you. 

Another is by putting all attention on breathing from the stomach. Feeling the sensation of the breathing. If & when it is noticed attention is on thoughts, gently, effortlessly, return attention to breathing from the stomach. If you do this and notice you ‘strayed’ to thoughts & brought attention back to breathing from the stomach a hundred times - feel good about it. Don’t hold expectations, just do it to experience it, yet, feel good about doing the ‘work’. Have faith in momentum, until you directly experience the results for yourself. 

 

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, levani said:

i can't just not react to it

Yes, you can not react. You can even respond instead of react. This is arguably the greatest discovery in one’s life. This matrix of the mind, what you might call the world, will keep on going. You could say it runs on determinism, cause & effect, reaction....but you my man, you will be waking up from it. You are not of this world. You are not mechanical. 

[Sagar Takker]

8 hours ago, Nahm said:

Yes, you can not react. You can even respond instead of react. This is arguably the greatest discovery in one’s life. This matrix of the mind, what you might call the world, will keep on going. You could say it runs on determinism, cause & effect, reaction....but you my man, you will be waking up from it. You are not of this world. You are not mechanical. 

Well said!

@levani Take small steps, friend. Small steps + consistency + time + patience = Mastery

[Nahm]

22 minutes ago, Sagar Takker said:

 

@levani Take small steps, friend. Small steps + consistency + time + patience = Mastery

Backatcha. ?? 

[levani]

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Yes. Do not allow this to be ‘existential’ or ‘philosophical’. This is not about ‘something that’s happening in some other place or some other time’. This is in regard to NOW. The direct experience, NOW. Is there a demon or whatever else in your direct experience, NOW? No. There isn’t. What is directly experienced, is the thoughts about it. Keep it simple...you are focusing on the thoughts, NOW. How do those thoughts feel - great, or, not great? Clearly - not great. Focus instead on what does feel good, what does resonate with the true nature. That can be literally anything else. There is a momentum to this, and that momentum must be known in direct experience. That is, you must focus on what does feel good to you. When a perspective does not resonate, let it go (simply because it doesn’t feel good). Sometimes letting a perspective go equals realizing ‘I was wrong about that’. Being wrong, realizing ‘I was wrong about x’ is one of the greatest, most freeing feeling experiences. Similar, if not the same, as letting go of a belief. The more you ‘play this game’ of aligning thought with your true nature...the more Truth is realized...the more you are focused on what you do want - and the more you are creating that which you do want in your life.

this is really really reaaaaally good stuff, this answers my shit completely and absolutely

 

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

When there is pain, there is pain. When there is not pain, but a focus on thoughts about potential pain, that is mental anguish / suffering. 

i feel you bro 100%, makes sense now

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Humility shall set you free my good man. It is a thought. You are focusing on it. It does not feel good. There are infinite ‘what if’s’ you could be focusing on...so be a bit picky and focus on what feels good to you. 

You might say, you have the ‘voice of God’ within you, and ‘it’ ‘speaks’ in feeling, in resonance, aka alignment with it, or discord against it. Just ease up on yo self, and listen to the true nature. 

gold.

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Say (inwardly) “this is what is coming”...and let it. “this is what is going”...and let it. 

Yes, I agree with feeling into it, exploring the feeling. Not focusing more on the thought, but feeling ‘into the body’. The sensation, and the sensation.  ‘Find’ that fear in the body. Where exactly is it? What exactly is it? What is it’s shape? What color is it?  If the body releases some emotion....let it.

these last few messages you wrote here and in our DMs were literally what i was looking for since the beginning of clicking on Leo's videos and watching them. Now to actually apply them, which I am and I will.

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Walking Meditation

bro i started doing this ever since i found your website innit about 2 weeks ago, it's absolutely life Δ as fuck i can already feel it exponentially growing me and overcoming addictions and etc.

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Another way to let a thought go is by focusing on any other thought or subject which feels good to you. 

yes, i've been doing that, every time i got scared to go to bed with the lights off a few weeks ago (don't laugh), i like started imagining the entity that's supposedly hunting me grow like the nicest legs and ass and i would just be fucking it from behind or something to help me overcome my thoughts and it worked, can't say it's a magic pill but it works for sure. I can't wait to get over this petty shit and start helping people myself and maybe being able to start doing psychedelics too so i can grow myself, damn.

 

top post bro, you're a god damn king for writing that, thank you <3

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

Yes, you can not react. You can even respond instead of react

this is something else i've been looking for in my life for a long time, priceless information literally, did you learn this off the forum, experience or a book maybe?

 

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

You are not of this world. You are not mechanical

i feel special now hahahaha

 

4 hours ago, Sagar Takker said:

Small steps + consistency + time + patience = Mastery

noice bro, i like that, TYSM to both of you <3

Edited January 6, 2021 by levani

[Nahm]

Awesome! ?? 

5 hours ago, levani said:

did you learn this off the forum, experience or a book maybe?

All of the above really. 

[Loving Radiance]

10 hours ago, levani said:

this is something else i've been looking for in my life for a long time, priceless information literally, did you learn this off the forum, experience or a book maybe?

If I remember correctly in the forgiveness video Leo mentioned responding rather than reacting on a side note.

Something like, "What would it be like if you consciously respond with compassion to the unjustice done to you instead of reacting to it."

[levani]

3 hours ago, Loving Radiance said:

unjustice

unjustice from who ?

[Loving Radiance]

@levani  Unjustice from the one you want to forgive of course.