Survival isn't selfish if it arises spontaneously?

[Nyseto]

I've been thinking about this for a bit since the need to survive leads to a lot of devilry in the world. Then I thought of animals trying to survive and noticed that they do it differently. They do it gracefully, spontaneously. In fact, survival is a dance of consciousness, so it can't be condemned entirely. So then I noticed that there's two types of survival. Physical survival, and egoic survival. If you're keeping your body alive and you're awakened, it's not necessarily selfish since you'd actually be a blessing to everyone else around you. Fueling the ego's need to survive is what's selfish.

Thoughts? 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nyseto

[Gesundheit]

Yes, that's what the Buddha meant when he said desire is the root of all suffering. The ego is infinitely imaginative it cannot be truly satisfied.

[No Self]

@Nyseto This is wise.

[RobertZ]

Thanks for the post.

'The need for survival leads to a lot of devilry.' The "need" to exist appears to be quite intrinsic to the pull of goodness. The drive toward existence is hardly short of goodness itself. Devilry, by contrast, could perhaps be discarded or condemned--but this question requires closer examination.

'Survival cannot be condemned entirely.' Definitely not. Why should survival be condemned at all?

"Selfishness" is largely a survival concept of truth-force worldviews.  We assume that unconscious selfishness--like that of an egotistical two-year-old child--does not deserve condemnation. The word "unconscious" is also highly ambiguous. If anything, it is highly "conscious" selfishness the devilry that we are considering. We cannot fault the drive toward existence--not even the egotistical and "unconscious" bullying of a two-year-old tyrant. 

Even devilry--some sort of physical or conceptual-ego selfishness that clings to its defects--would require an essential infusion of consciousness to deserve complete condemnation. This is an old debate, going back at least to Origen of Alexandria (c 184 – c 253), who suggested that damnation cannot be everlasting--but that even the demons shall be redeemed.  The dominant view, however, became that it is theoretically possible for a will enlightened by the Spirit of God to eternally reject goodness; so damnation can be everlasting--even if it is not infinite in every respect. Everlasting damnation is better than non-existence, to say the least.

Edited January 3, 2021 by RobertZ

[EnlightenmentBlog]

No, survival is selfish, no matter how it arises. What matters is degree and while awakening certainly helps, a lot of your bullshit still remains unquestioned. Just make sure not to fall into the 'no-thought makes everything alright' paradigm.

[Nyseto]

8 hours ago, RobertZ said:

Thanks for the post.

'The need for survival leads to a lot of devilry.' The "need" to exist appears to be quite intrinsic to the pull of goodness. The drive toward existence is hardly short of goodness itself. Devilry, by contrast, could perhaps be discarded or condemned--but this question requires closer examination.

'Survival cannot be condemned entirely.' Definitely not. Why should survival be condemned at all?

"Selfishness" is largely a survival concept of truth-force worldviews.  We assume that unconscious selfishness--like that of an egotistical two-year-old child--does not deserve condemnation. The word "unconscious" is also highly ambiguous. If anything, it is highly "conscious" selfishness the devilry that we are considering. We cannot fault the drive toward existence--not even the egotistical and "unconscious" bullying of a two-year-old tyrant. 

Even devilry--some sort of physical or conceptual-ego selfishness that clings to its defects--would require an essential infusion of consciousness to deserve complete condemnation. This is an old debate, going back at least to Origen of Alexandria (c 184 – c 253), who suggested that damnation cannot be everlasting--but that even the demons shall be redeemed.  The dominant view, however, became that it is theoretically possible for a will enlightened by the Spirit of God to eternally reject goodness; so damnation can be everlasting--even if it is not infinite in every respect. Everlasting damnation is better than non-existence, to say the least.

Well unconscious selfishness could be considered non egoic selfishness such as when an animal eats another. Doesn't it become paradoxical in a way that unconscious selfishness is no longer considered true selfishness? Like you said, what can you do to a 2 year old being unconsciously selfish. 

But then when you're being egoically selfish, it can't really be considered being consciously selfish either as that becomes another paradox. Maybe instead it's fair to say that unconscious selfishness such as a 2 year old or animal fighting another doesn't exist and the only unconscious selfishness is that of the ego.  

[Nyseto]

2 hours ago, EnlightenmentBlog said:

No, survival is selfish, no matter how it arises. What matters is degree and while awakening certainly helps, a lot of your bullshit still remains unquestioned. Just make sure not to fall into the 'no-thought makes everything alright' paradigm.

Hmm, about that last part with no thought. Would it be better to say that no identification with thought makes everything alright? No identification with though=no ego=no problem. 

There's a saying that goes, "True thinkers never think."

[Leo Gura]

The only reason an animal's survival seems graceful is because you are so far detached from it that if doesn't personally affect your emotional system.

Animals are brutal and evil as fuck. If the things that animals did to each other happened to your children, you'd be on CNN screaming. Which is why humans invented government.

[xxxx]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The only reason an animal's survival seems graceful is because you are so far detached from it that if doesn't personally affect your emotional system.

 

+1

Please watch the Planet Earth ( I and II ) series. 

It’s fascinating. 

@Nyseto

Edited January 3, 2021 by xxxx

[Nyseto]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The only reason an animal's survival seems graceful is because you are so far detached from it that if doesn't personally affect your emotional system.

Animals are brutal and evil as fuck. If the things that animals did to each other happened to your children, you'd be on CNN screaming. Which is why humans invented government.

I'll have to disagree on that one. How can animals have an egoic mind that they can identify with so they can be evil? Yes their outward manifestation of survival is brutal, but how could it come from evil? In your video about the devil you said evil is selfishness, the belief that you are a separate self. How can an animal believe it's a separate self when it's brain is so underdeveloped physically compared to a human's? Doesn't enlightenment only exist for human beings because humans are the ones with the problem of identifying  with their minds whereas animals and plants are already enlightened? Have you ever seen an animal want to commit suicide? 

I don't know, saying an animal is evil is like saying a hurricane is evil. Someone enlighten me 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nyseto

[Carl-Richard]

Physical survival is also egoic survival. You choose to identify with your physical body.

[Nyseto]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Physical survival is also egoic survival. You choose to identify with your physical body.

So then that means that enlightenment, awakening, God, etc. isnt real. Because as long as you're choosing to survive, you're automatically an ego?

There has to be something about survival not being selfish, otherwise it just doesn't add up.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nyseto

[Gesundheit]

[Hello from Russia]

19 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I'll have to disagree on that one. How can animals have an egoic mind that they can identify with so they can be evil? Yes their outward manifestation of survival is brutal, but how could it come from evil? In your video about the devil you said evil is selfishness, the belief that you are a separate self. How can an animal believe it's a separate self when it's brain is so underdeveloped physically compared to a human's? Doesn't enlightenment only exist for human beings because humans are the ones with the problem of identifying  with their minds whereas animals and plants are already enlightened? Have you ever seen an animal want to commit suicide? 

I don't know, saying an animal is evil is like saying a hurricane is evil. Someone enlighten me 

But you assume that animals have no ego. But do they really? It looks like they do have it, if we use the definition of ego invented by psychoanalysis

Animals for sure have psychology and personality with their unique inclinations (some animals are more energetic & playful, some are more apathethic and lethargic, for example) . I think we can combine it all and call it ego

Edited January 3, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[Nyseto]

11 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

But you assume that animals have no ego. But do they really? It looks like they do have it, if we use the definition of ego invented by psychoanalysis

Animals for sure have psychology and personality with their unique inclinations (some animals are more energetic & playful, some are more apathethic and lethargic, for example) . I think we can combine it all and call it ego

I'm playing devil's advocate. I don't completely refute animals not having an ego as toxic households affect the pets in such a way where they show jealousy, etc.

If animals have an ego, then animals can awaken and become more conscious as well? There's still a distinction though. Let's say animals have an ego, it's nowhere near to the extent of that of a human's because if it was, you'd see suicidal animals such as a chimpanzee tired of life jumping out of a tree why its fellow chimps want to hold it back from doing so.

Now I'll really throw a wrench. The guidelines say you must be comfortable with paradoxes. Here's one. You're in a situation where you're trying to save your ass in order to save someone else. A mountain lion is charging at you while youe kids are nearby. You have to survive to kill this mountain lion to save your kids. And yes, mountain lions can be killed with barehands as there was a man who made it on the news doing so. You're being selfish and selfless at the same time. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nyseto

[Carl-Richard]

43 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

So then that means that enlightenment, awakening, God, etc. isnt real. Because as long as you're choosing to survive, you're automatically an ego?

There has to be something about survival not being selfish, otherwise it just doesn't add up.

Awakening is more about seeing the true nature of the ego and survival. The ego still exists in a sense. Survival is still going on to various degrees. The difference is now you have the freedom to choose.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Hello from Russia]

 

 

21 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I'm playing devil's advocate. I don't completely refute animals not having an ego as toxic households affect the pets in such a way where they show jealousy, etc.

Sif animals have an ego, then animals can awaken and become more conscious as well? There's still a distinction though. Let's say animals have an ego, it's nowhere near to the extent of that of a human's because if it was, you'd see suicidal animals such as a chimpanzee tired of life jumping out of a tree why its fellow chimps want to hold it back from doing so.

@Nyseto yeah, but suicide and depression might be too complex, because they are very conceptual activities. I certainly witnessed how dogs/cats that my family had were becoming more sad and depressed as they suffered from something (some disease or they were lonely or they were stuck at home for too long time) 

I'd even say there are levels of consciousness in animals too!

Think of a wild dog. It is a scary and dangerous beast, can be hyper aggressive. Mainly because he is in constant survival mode, having to hunt his food, etc. 

But now think of a typical domesticated dog. Most of his needs if not all are taken care of: constant stream of food, warm "bed", play, has a territory that is automatically contested for him, has a company, hell, he can even get free sex and recreation without doing really that much on his own part! Such an easy life! 

Compare now how both dogs then behave socially, how much friendlinness they have, how much happiness they have, damn, there is even such a thing as selflessness in dogs! In those that are super devoted to you

Edited January 3, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[Nyseto]

15 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

 

 

@Nyseto yeah, but suicide and depression might be too complex, because they are very conceptual activities. I certainly witnesses how dogs/cats that my family had were becoming more sad and depressed as they suffered from something (some disease or they were lonely or they were stuck at home for too long time) 

I'd even say there are levels of consciousness in animals too!

Think of a wild dog. It is a scary and dangerous beast, can be hyper aggressive. Mainly because he is in constant survival mode, having to hunt his food, etc. 

But now think of a typical domesticated dog. Most of his needs if not all are taken care of: constant stream of food, warm "bed", play, has a territory that is automatically contested for him, has a company, hell, he can even get free sex and recreation without doing really that much on his own part! Such an easy life! 

Compare now how both dogs then behave socially, how much friendlinness they have, how much happiness they have, damn, there is even such a thing as selflessness in dogs! In those that are super devoted to you

I totally agree.

My main point here is that I can't say that survival is 100% selfish and there are paradoxes to it. Because let's say you're in a situation where you're trying to save your ass in order to save someone else. A mountain lion is charging at you while your kids are nearby. You have to survive to kill this mountain lion to save your kids. And yes, mountain lions can be killed with barehands as there was a man who made it on the news doing so. You're being selfish and selfless at the same time. So as far as survival being selfish goes all I can say is, it depends. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nyseto

[EnlightenmentBlog]

On 3.01.2021 г. at 6:58 PM, Nyseto said:

Hmm, about that last part with no thought. Would it be better to say that no identification with thought makes everything alright? No identification with though=no ego=no problem. 

It doesn't make it alright. What I wanted to say is that you can have a lot of unconscious survival mechanisms at work that you must still work on. If a serial killer doesn't identify with thought does that make it alright?

On 3.01.2021 г. at 9:51 PM, Nyseto said:

My main point here is that I can't say that survival is 100% selfish and there are paradoxes to it. Because let's say you're in a situation where you're trying to save your ass in order to save someone else. A mountain lion is charging at you while your kids are nearby. You have to survive to kill this mountain lion to save your kids.

That's still selfish. Survival is not only physical, but more psychological. You're attached to your kids and your survival means your kids' survival.

[7thLetter]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:07 AM, Nyseto said:

Have you ever seen an animal want to commit suicide?