New here, the case with right & left politics

[Nyseto]

I'd like to start off with saying I've watched many of Leo's videos well after having watched Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle, and Mooji for the past few years so that's how I know that much of what he has said in his videos about being God, etc. Is in line with the truth. I have been awakening slowly through time since the ego can be so cunning at times and have had glimpses of total freedom/deathlessness of just not knowing where I actually felt a lot like my 5 year old joyful self without taking any substances. Ever since then I've been pointing to the same truth to whoever I meet that's interested in truth be it a Christian, an athiest, etc. The reason I'm starting off with posting in this section of the forum is because after having watched Leo's videos lately, I googled to see what his view on Trump is. From what I've seen he definitely doesn't like Trump and nor do most people here as I've went through older threads as well. I've read the community guidelines and what struck me is that right wing ideologies and Fox News was mentioned but left wing ideologies and CNN was not. This thread is not about Trump being better or anything, but more about the consciousness level of the left. 

Both the left and right have valid points and their own propaganda about each other, but I've always preferred Trump because of the level of consciousness I've seen in the left since 2016. For example the left talks about unity and love which is closer to the truth, but I see it manifesting more as devilry than anything else. They talk about unity, but then turn around and say that Trump supporters must be punished, held accountable and so on. They constantly mention that Trump has created so much division but yet they have created so much division by demonizing him. I remember when the man got corona and leftists were jumping up and down with glee that it may be his end. They say Trump is racist but yet BLM (which is largely left) has showed racism towards whites and dislike for the phrase "All lives matter". Some guy on YouTube did a social experiment where he went into a black neighborhood holding up a sign saying all lives matter and BLM supporters wanted to knock it out of his hands. To me at least it just seems like Trump's devilry towards the left is more of a product of the devilry coming from the left. I guess even though Trump may not look at himself, he has been pretty good about calling out the devilry from the left for the past 4 years and the left have been hating him that much more because of it. I have never seen such a low level of consciousness from the opposing side due to a president winning in 2016. And yes, I am seeing low consciousness coming from the right too now due to Biden winning and I try to tell Trump supporters that they are no different by going around saying "Biden is not my president." However I can understand why Trump supporters are acting the way they are now with Biden winning because of how the left acted in 2016. They think it's fair as a result. For 4 years the left demonized Trump so now I won't be surprised if the right spends the next 4 years demonizing Biden. The thing is that in the elections with Bush and Obama, I haven't as much low consciousness from the losing side.

What I don't understand is why isn't the left's issues addressed more by people other than the obvious Trump supporters? We are so quick to bash fascism, nationalism but not so much when it comes to socialism and communism which I didn't see mentioned anywhere in the guidelines. I saw right wing mentioned in the guidelines but not left wing as another example. I understand the problems with nationalism and fascism but there's many problems with socialism. Leftists lean towards wanting free this, free that, universal Healthcare, education, etc. And that's why I mention the mouse trap analogy to them. The cheese is free but not without a catch. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Nyseto said:

 I understand the problems with nationalism and fascism but there's many problems with socialism. Leftists lean towards wanting free this, free that, universal Healthcare, education, etc. 

Universal Healtcare isn’t free. It is paid for through public taxes. Universal Healthcare is more efficient and cheaper than the current U.S. system due to a single payer, removing middle men health insurance and their obscene profit taking. Look at M4A systems in  countries like Canada, Germany, Denmark etc. All developed countries have forms of Universal Healthcare, except the U.S.. The U.S. is lagging far behind. Universal Healthcare is a “problem” to billionaires, corporate health insurance and pharmaceuticals since their profits would decrease. Yet it would be an asset to public health and quality of life for the vast majority of Americans. For example, medical expenses would decrease, employers would not control people’s health care and people would not go bankrupt over an illness. Politically, universal healthcare is a left issue, yet on a public perception basis Universal Healthcare isn’t a left issue since the majority of Americans favor it. It has mainstream support. 

Regarding consciousness you seem to be equating problems on the right and left. For example, you list facism and nationalism as a problem on the right and Universal Healthcare as a problem on the left. Those two don’t seem fair to compare since fascism is harmful to society and Universal Healthcare is healthy for society. It would be like saying Nazism and advanced healtcare in Canada are equal problems of concern. 

And pure socialism / capitalism is far left. The U.S. currently has a mix of socialism and capitalism, The mainstream left are democratic socialists that recognize toxic capitalism and want to disempower the harmful aspects of capitalism and shift toward more social empowerment. Yet unfortunately, people get distracted into culture wars.

In terms of models of consciousness like SD, right-wing would be considered stage Blue and left-wing would be considered stage Green. Each stage has their problems, yet Green would be at a higher conscious level than Blue. To objectively criticize both stages from a meta view, one would need to be at a higher conscious level than both, stage Yellow. Here, a hybrid system like Nordic systems with regulated capitalism and a strong social welfare net would be considered superior to the current U.S. system. More advanced systems like Resource-Based-Economies seem too far advanced for the current level of human consciousness. Yet the current pandemic may push younger generations to take a hard look at how our current hyper capitalist based economies are unsustaiiinable and leading to severe consequences, such as destruction of the Earth, climate crises, pandemics etc.

[Nyseto]

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Universal Healtcare isn’t free. It is paid for through public taxes. Universal Healthcare is more efficient and cheaper than the current U.S. system due to a single payer, removing middle men health insurance and their obscene profit taking. Look at M4A systems in  countries like Canada, Germany, Denmark etc. All developed countries have forms of Universal Healthcare, except the U.S.. The U.S. is lagging far behind. Universal Healthcare is a “problem” to billionaires, corporate health insurance and pharmaceuticals since their profits would decrease. Yet it would be an asset to public health and quality of life for the vast majority of Americans. For example, medical expenses would decrease, employers would not control people’s health care and people would not go bankrupt over an illness. Politically, universal healthcare is a left issue, yet on a public perception basis Universal Healthcare isn’t a left issue since the majority of Americans favor it. It has mainstream support. 

Regarding consciousness you seem to be equating problems on the right and left. For example, you list facism and nationalism as a problem on the right and Universal Healthcare as a problem on the left. Those two don’t seem fair to compare since fascism is harmful to society and Universal Healthcare is healthy for society. It would be like saying Nazism and advanced healtcare in Canada are equal problems of concern. 

In terms of models of consciousness like SD, right-wing would be considered stage Blue and left-wing would be considered stage Green. Each stage has their problems, yet Green would be at a higher conscious level than Blue. To objectively criticize both stages from a meta view, one would need to be at a higher conscious level than both, stage Yellow. Here, a hybrid system like Nordic systems with regulated capitalism and a strong social welfare net would be considered superior to the current U.S. system. More advanced systems like Resource-Based-Economies seem too far advanced for the current level of human consciousness. Yet the current pandemic may push younger generations to take a hard look at how our current hyper capitalist based economies are unsustaiiinable and leading to severe consequences, such as destruction of the Earth, climate crises, pandemics etc.

Leo mentioned in one of his videos that you don't have conscious politics until tier 2. So left wing being green and right wing being blue are stuck in tier 1 which is another reason why I am equating issues on the right with issues on the left. Maybe that's why the left hates Trump so much. The left thinks it's in tier 2 and Trump is basically all like, "no, no you come back here, you're tier 1 like me." So in a way, Trump has helped me to be even more conscious than the left (going beyond green) by shedding light on the left's devilry. And I'm not saying that makes Trump more conscious, but rather Trump served a useful purpose. I think if you're an unconscious Trump supporter, then you're stuck in stage blue with Trump. But if you're a conscious Trump supporter, then you end up going past green which is where the left is at as you mentioned. To me it feels like I'm leaving the right and the left altogether. But if I'm going to pick a side, I'm going to pick a side that will allow me to be more conscious even though that side is lower consciousness than the other because it puts the so called higher consciousness party to the test. That is where I agree with Leo that it's not about about left vs. Right, but about level of consciousness.

I meant to say that the problem on the left is not universal healthcare but socialism/communism whereas with the right it's nationalism/fascism. Universal Healthcare is just something I very briefly mentioned. The left is now talking about equity over equality for example. Isn't that essentially communism? Anything that's free has to be provided by tax payers but socialism reaches the point where people end up getting more for doing less. Even though God is absolute, God also manifests as a multiplicity and it seems like the left wants to deny that multiplicity by wanting to cram everyone into the same box through equity over equality, so isn't that lower consciousness? We all share the same being but we are different as well, that's one of the hallmarks of God. How do we know the left isn't being egotistical in it's own way by refusing to accept that others have an advantage? Alexandra Cortez got backlash for a tweet saying that billionaires need workers but workers don't need billionaires. It's like the left creates division in its own way through a false sense of unity. "I am for unity and if you aren't, therefore you must go." Isn't that self defeating?

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Danioover9000]

@Nyseto

10 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I'd like to start off with saying I've watched many of Leo's videos well after having watched Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle, and Mooji for the past few years so that's how I know that much of what he has said in his videos about being God, etc. Is in line with the truth. I have been awakening slowly through time since the ego can be so cunning at times and have had glimpses of total freedom/deathlessness of just not knowing where I actually felt a lot like my 5 year old joyful self without taking any substances. Ever since then I've been pointing to the same truth to whoever I meet that's interested in truth be it a Christian, an athiest, etc. The reason I'm starting off with posting in this section of the forum is because after having watched Leo's videos lately, I googled to see what his view on Trump is. From what I've seen he definitely doesn't like Trump and nor do most people here as I've went through older threads as well. I've read the community guidelines and what struck me is that right wing ideologies and Fox News was mentioned but left wing ideologies and CNN was not. This thread is not about Trump being better or anything, but more about the consciousness level of the left. 

Both the left and right have valid points and their own propaganda about each other, but I've always preferred Trump because of the level of consciousness I've seen in the left since 2016. For example the left talks about unity and love which is closer to the truth, but I see it manifesting more as devilry than anything else. They talk about unity, but then turn around and say that Trump supporters must be punished, held accountable and so on. They constantly mention that Trump has created so much division but yet they have created so much division by demonizing him. I remember when the man got corona and leftists were jumping up and down with glee that it may be his end. They say Trump is racist but yet BLM (which is largely left) has showed racism towards whites and dislike for the phrase "All lives matter". Some guy on YouTube did a social experiment where he went into a black neighborhood holding up a sign saying all lives matter and BLM supporters wanted to knock it out of his hands. To me at least it just seems like Trump's devilry towards the left is more of a product of the devilry coming from the left. I guess even though Trump may not look at himself, he has been pretty good about calling out the devilry from the left for the past 4 years and the left have been hating him that much more because of it. I have never seen such a low level of consciousness from the opposing side due to a president winning in 2016. And yes, I am seeing low consciousness coming from the right too now due to Biden winning and I try to tell Trump supporters that they are no different by going around saying "Biden is not my president." However I can understand why Trump supporters are acting the way they are now with Biden winning because of how the left acted in 2016. They think it's fair as a result. For 4 years the left demonized Trump so now I won't be surprised if the right spends the next 4 years demonizing Biden. The thing is that in the elections with Bush and Obama, I haven't as much low consciousness from the losing side.

What I don't understand is why isn't the left's issues addressed more by people other than the obvious Trump supporters? We are so quick to bash fascism, nationalism but not so much when it comes to socialism and communism which I didn't see mentioned anywhere in the guidelines. I saw right wing mentioned in the guidelines but not left wing as another example. I understand the problems with nationalism and fascism but there's many problems with socialism. Leftists lean towards wanting free this, free that, universal Healthcare, education, etc. And that's why I mention the mouse trap analogy to them. The cheese is free but not without a catch. 

There's almost no point in taking an agnostic position when it comes to discussions about politics. Leo has his own biases, and so do many others here on the forum. How do we know which perspectives and biases are right? One way I've answered this question is to participate in this forum less, and read and think critically for every post on politics posted here for myself. That way I'm training my mind in one way.

[Forestluv]

34 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Leo mentioned in one of his videos that you don't have conscious politics until tier 2. So left wing being green and right wing being blue are stuck in tier 1 which is another reason why I am equating issues on the right with issues on the left.

It depends on how you define “conscious” and what the threshold is. Tier2 is an enormous jump in consciousness, yet there are still conscious levels within Tier1. Yellow has a good understanding of relativism, yet doesn’t necessarily consider all positions to be equal.

34 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I meant to say that the problem on the left is not universal healthcare but socialism/communism whereas with the right it's nationalism/fascism. Universal Healthcare is just something I very briefly mentioned. The left is now talking about equity over equality for example. Isn't that essentially communism? Anything that's free has to be provided by tax payers but socialism reaches the point where people end up getting more for doing less. Even though God is absolute, God also manifests as a multiplicity and it seems like the left wants to deny that multiplicity by wanting to cram everyone into the same box through equity over equality, so isn't that lower consciousness? 

Yet universal healthcare IS a form of socialism and I think a strong argument can be made that it is superior than capitalist health care systems. Some areas of life don’t fit capitalism very well. 

You seem to be creating distinct categories like “socialism”, “capitalism” and “fascism”. Right now, the U.S. has many aspects of socialism such as social security, police, fire departments, road maintenance, libraries etc. Socialism is a spectrum and the question is how far along the spectrum is optimal. Right now, the U.S may be 20% socialism and there are toxic components within that 80% of capitalism. Things like the opioid crisis and for-profit prison systems are clear example of hyper capitalism that harms society. So perhaps it’s a good idea to move from 20% socialism to 40% socialism. Going to 100% socialism or communism will not happen in the U.S. That framing is used by the right-wing and corporate centrists to distract the public and promote fear that they can profit off of. 

To me, the concept of equality is idealistic and naive. Saying “let’s just treat everyone equally based on merit” has some value. It encourages personal responsibility and can motivate people toward reaching their higher potential. Yet it also maintains status-quo asymmetric power dynamics. It dismisses the effects of things like wealth inequality, systemic racism and devolves into bootstrap theory. 

Imo, those that truly want equality can see that a combination of equity and equality is needed. Rather than a debate between two opposites, a dialectic synthesis is a superior view , imo.

[Nyseto]

4 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It depends on how you define “conscious” and what the threshold is. Tier2 is an enormous jump in consciousness, yet there are still conscious levels within Tier1. Yellow has a good understanding of relativism, yet doesn’t necessarily consider all positions to be equal.

Yet universal healthcare IS a form of socialism and I think a strong argument can be made that it is superior than capitalist health care systems. Some areas of life don’t fit capitalism very well. 

You seem to be creating distinct categories like “socialism”, “capitalism” and “fascism”. Right now, the U.S. has many aspects of socialism such as social security, police, fire departments, road maintenance, libraries etc. Socialism is a spectrum and the question is how far along the spectrum is optimal. Right now, the U.S may be 20% socialism and there are toxic components within that 80% of capitalism. Things like the opioid crisis and for-profit prison systems are clear example of hyper capitalism that harms society. So perhaps it’s a good idea to move from 20% socialism to 40% socialism. Going to 100% socialism or communism will not happen in the U.S. That framing is used by the right-wing and corporate centrists to distract the public and promote fear that they can profit off of. 

To me, the concept of equality is idealistic and naive. Saying “let’s just treat everyone equally based on merit” has some value. It encourages personal responsibility and can motivate people toward reaching their higher potential. Yet it also maintains status-quo asymmetric power dynamics and devolves into bootstrap theory. 

My main point is the good that came out of Trump as far as consciousness goes. The left thinks it's in tier 2 and Trump is basically all like, "no, no you come back here, you're tier 1 like me." So in a way, Trump has helped me to be even more conscious than the left (going beyond green) by shedding light on the left's devilry. And I'm not saying that makes Trump more conscious, but rather Trump served a useful purpose. I think if you're an unconscious Trump supporter, then you're stuck in stage blue with Trump. But if you're a conscious Trump supporter, then you end up going past green which is where the left is at as you mentioned. To me it feels like I'm leaving the right and the left altogether. But if I'm going to pick a side, I'm going to pick a side that will allow me to be more conscious even though that side is lower consciousness than the other because it puts the so called higher consciousness party to the test. That is where I agree with Leo that it's more about left vs. Right, but about level of consciousness.

[Forestluv]

34 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

My main point is the good that came out of Trump as far as consciousness goes.

As far as consciousness goes, I’d say Trump revealed to a lot of people how low conscious red-blue is and has triggered a lot of people at green. Yet unfortunately, the public is largely blind to toxic aspects of Orange - in particular the negative impacts of hyper capitalism. I also think there are annoying aspects to progressives and they can be naive, yet I would not equate them to red-blue fascism / nationalism or Orange hyper capitalism. For example, I would put progressives at a higher conscious level regarding climate issues, even though they may be annoying about it at times. I’d like to see more empowerment to progressives that want to create sustainable energy systems than capitalists that want to destroy the earth for profit.

34 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

But if you're a conscious Trump supporter, then you end up going past green

I’d say people support who is closest to their own conscious level. I would consider a conscious Trump supporter to be someone like Don Beck, who is reasonable -  yet unable to purify / transcend his blue conditioning and green shadow. 

It sounds like you are developing your own belief structures of political / social consciousness, which you are free to do. You create your reality. 

[Blackhawk]

 

[Nyseto]

43 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

As far as consciousness goes, I’d say Trump revealed to a lot of people how low conscious red-blue is. Yet unfortunately, the public is largely blind to toxic aspects of Orange - in particular the negative impacts of hyper capitalism. I also think there are annoying aspects to progressives and they can be naive, yet I would not equate them to red-blue fascism / nationalism or Orange hyper capitalism. For example, I would put progressives at a higher conscious level regarding climate issues, even though they may be annoying about it at times. I’d like to see more empowerment to progressives that want to create sustainable energy systems than capitalists that want to destroy the earth for profit.

I’d say people support who is closest to their own conscious level. I would consider a conscious Trump supporter to be someone like Don Beck, who is reasonable -  yet unable to purify / transcend his blue conditioning and green shadow. 

It sounds like you are developing your own belief structures of political / social consciousness, which you are free to do. You create your reality. 

I don't support Trump for his ideas so much as I support Trump for what he did to the left. The left's devilry spoke for itself. Yes people support those closest to their level of consciousness but that's not necessarily always the case when your options on who to support are very limited. The election was mainly going to be between republicans and democrats so I had to pick between either if I wanted to vote. If Don Beck was on the ballot with a good chance to win, then sure. 

Take the election results for example. If it was the other way around, the left would of reacted the same way calling the election a fraud. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I don't support Trump for his ideas so much as I support Trump for what he did to the left. The left's devilry spoke for itself. Yes people support those closest to their level of consciousness but that's not necessarily always the case when your options on who to support are very limited. The election was mainly going to be between republicans and democrats so I had to pick between either if I wanted to vote.

Even when there are two candidates, people will vote for the candidate closer to their conscious level. Trump at red-blue or Biden at Orange. Yet I could see reasonable people at blue-orange supporting Trump if they had blue anchors and a green shadow. They would prefer to have red-blue authoritarianism to ward off green shadows. This is part of the culture war strategy.

I’m having a hard time imagining what a Tier 2 Trump supporter would look like. Could you give an example? 

[Blackhawk]

24 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Take the election results for example. If it was the other way around, the left would of reacted the same way calling the election a fraud. 

Utter bullshit.

[Leo Gura]

Lol

That's like saying your prefer Hitler because people opposing him were being too divisive.

The problem here is that your state of developmemt is not high enough to see that left is better than right, relatively speaking.

[Nyseto]

Just now, Blackhawk said:

Utter bullshit.

They already said 2016 was a fraud when Trump beat Hilary. I've talked to many leftists prior to the election and asked them what would they think if Trump won again? Answers I got were: fraud, Russia again, corruption 

[Nyseto]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

That's like saying your prefer Hitler because people opposing him were being too divisive.

The problem here is that your state of developmemt is not high enough to see that left is better than right, relatively speaking.

But the left hasn't just been opposing Trump. They've been opposing many other areas of society including police, businesses, etc. How can I see that left is better than right when they're both playing the pot calling the kettle black game? I can't say that either one is better. What I can say is that Trump showed that the left is just as bad therefore we can develop past both

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Leo Gura]

@Nyseto No serious leftist denied that Trump won the 2016 election.

Did Trunp use shady and illegal tactics to win in 2016? Of course! His lawyer admitted it. Trump broke the law with his hush payments.

As for Russia, they were clearly on Trump's side with hacking and propaganda campaigns. And Trump cheated again in the 2020 election using Ukraine.

[Nyseto]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Nyseto No serious leftist denied that Trump won the 2016 election.

Did Trunp use shady and illegal tactics to win in 2016? Of course! His lawyer admitted it. Trump broke the law with his hush payments.

As for Russia, they were clearly on Trump's side with hacking and propaganda campaigns.

Would you agree that both sides have their fair share of propaganda about each other? They point out each other's devilry without self reflection? 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Forestluv]

29 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

What I can say is that Trump showed that the left is just as bad therefore we can develop past both

Yet developing past both includes aspects of the left. One needs to learn algebra before learning calculus. Just because some algebra teachers are rude and condescending, doesn’t mean we can skip algebra and go straight to calculus. 

So far on policy, you’ve said you don’t like the left because they are for Universal Healthcare and public education - and that they are against the police and businesses. Yet these are hyper simplistic right-wing frames. Serious people on the left go much deeper into nuances and complexities. 

[Michal__]

There are 2 kinds of communism when it comes to consciousness. Stage blue/red communism & stage green communism. 

Of course the communism in north korea is not the same thing that leftists have in mind nowadays.

Fascism, on the other hand, doesn't exist at the higher stages.

[Nyseto]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

Yet developing past both includes aspects of the left. One needs to learn algebra before learning calculus. Just because some algebra teachers are rude and condescending, doesn’t mean we can skip algebra and go straight to calculus. 

So far on policy, you’ve said you don’t like the left because they are for Universal Healthcare and public education - and that they are against the police and businesses. Yet these are hyper simplistic right-wing frames. Serious people on the left go much deeper into nuances and complexities. 

Of course, you have to include aspects of the left. But key word: aspects. But the way the left has been going on about it, has been making them swing between red and green. One day they're green, the next they're red. 

I like the idea of universal healthcare and public education. What I don't like is how they are quick to judge those who slightly oppose it as being inconsiderate of others. When in fact, public education and Universal Healthcare is funded by tax payer money and if you are lazy and part take in nothing but devilry, then where is the consideration for the taxpayers contributing to the Universal Healthcare of that individual? That's my problem with the left, they talk about consideration and unity but only when it behooves them. If they were so much better, we wouldn't have close to half of all voters opposing them. They're happy they won but what does that fix? Country is still heavily divided.

I want universal healthcare but I don't want it to go to waste. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto

[Nyseto]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Even when there are two candidates, people will vote for the candidate closer to their conscious level. Trump at red-blue or Biden at Orange. Yet I could see reasonable people at blue-orange supporting Trump if they had blue anchors and a green shadow. They would prefer to have red-blue authoritarianism to ward off green shadows. This is part of the culture war strategy.

I’m having a hard time imagining what a Tier 2 Trump supporter would look like. Could you give an example? 

Ben Shapiro lol. He seems to be pretty fair calling Trump out on being dishonest at times the way he goes on about things. I really like the way he points out the left's blindspots. For example he mentioned how one guy at an interview in California was asked, "What are you doing to fight systemic racism?" And Ben mentioned how the only purpose of that question was if you "speak the language", not necessarily whether you know what systemic racist is or not. Tucker Carlson too. A conscious Trump supporter is more one who can really pick apart the left intelligently than one who just outright supports Trump "because guns". 

 

I'd say the biggest reason I've been for the right is because I used to be extremely liberal to the point that it was making me more unconscious.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nyseto