Enlightenment cannot be the goal

[meow_meow]

Hey everyone,

I just finished my first book on the topic of zen, enlightenment etc - Alan Watts - The way of Zen.
And it's a great book, I'm fascinated how easy it was to read it.

Anyway, after completing the book I don't feel like there is any point to do self-inqury anymore, I mean I've been meditating and self-inquiring for a while now (I've Meditating daily ~1.5 years and self-inqury 2 - 3 times a week for 5 - 7 months)

I do understand that asking myself questions like "who am I" or "what am I" or the neti neti method is basically spinning around in circles, chasing my tail - asking myself who is myself, while being I while searching for the I, and basically fueling my own existance.

Baisacally the conclusion after finishing the book is that reaching Dao cannot be the goal or a destination or something to achieve because if it becomes one of these, it's not Dao. And that makes perfect sense since a goal, destination or achievement is a thing and how can enlightenment be a thing? 

I basically don't see any point of asking questions anymore or even looking since what is there to look for? Who's looking? It's still my mind that's doing all that.

Any tips on what to do? How to think? or Any idea of how to proceed on this spiritual journe y past this point would be helpfull.
 

[Javfly33]

Classic newbie mistake.

Enlightment is not a thing and you are it. But if you haven´t realized it directly and experience it for yourself, taking it as a belief won´t help you that much.

So you have to seek and seek and seek even though what you are seeking is what you already are.

Yes, its a mindfuck and counter-intuitive but this is not something you can outsmart. Too many spiritual people have fallen into the trap of not seeking and adopting God and Truth as a belief. Don´t become one of those people.

Seek !

[snowyowl]

@meow_meow but don't you see, this is a great insight you've already gained for all your hard work so far. Spirituality has shifted from seeking something outside the present moment, to chasing your own tail. The seeker is seeking the seeker, it's the strange loop, the awareness of awareness. So yes! It sounds like you're ready to drop the questions and goals, and be the Dao rather than seek it

Edited January 1, 2021 by snowyowl

[nistake]

I asked myself the same kind of questions a while ago. After some comtemplation, I felt intuitively that I needed to stop putting labels on my spiritual practises because they can easily become mechanical tail chasing routines. So, nowadays my main spiritual practise (if you can call it a practise) is just sitting in silence. I basically let go of any goals and just listen to the silence.

As for you, either try to drop all of your expectations and goals when engaging in spiritual practises or keep seeking even harder. It requires some experimentation, but eventually you'll see what works for you.

[Bodhitree]

Well Papaji did say that self inquiry needs only be done once, and to then do it “properly” 

I also reached a point like this. I did a number of years of Buddhist meditation, and then I was reading an anthology of Buddhist sutras, and I had a long hard look at cessation and I couldn’t find myself in it anymore. I started reading Advaita and I also reverted to doing “just sitting”.

[mandyjw]

Don't mistake thoughts for enlightenment. 

16 hours ago, meow_meow said:

I basically don't see any point of asking questions anymore or even looking since what is there to look for? Who's looking? It's still my mind that's doing all that.
 

That's a thought, I have decided asking questions is pointless so I will place this limitation on myself and project a future where I will maintain this self imposed limitation to not ask questions... for what purpose? 

[No Self]

16 hours ago, meow_meow said:

Who's looking? It's still my mind that's doing all that.

Then who are you? A seeker working to find something of value in the future? You are already the Self.

[Aaron p]

16 hours ago, meow_meow said:

I basically don't see any point of asking questions anymore or even looking since what is there to look for? Who's looking? It's still my mind that's doing all that.

Just be very careful. Not looking for the needle is not the same as finding the no-needle.

Enlightenment is very real and there are false enlightenments that exist. Do not believe that you do not exist. Look closer with less dogma and you will find that you still very much believe you are human.

You won't get enlightened with self enquiry unless your immensely gifted and consistent for maybe 80 years. Maybe. Very low chance. Get yourself into Mexico or the Netherlands or the Amazon if you don't want to get 5meo illegally. There's a lot of nice theory that is talked about, but 5meo is really required for serious growth

Edited January 2, 2021 by Aaron p

[Tim R]

3 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

Not looking for the needle is not the same as finding the no-needle

Nice

[Aaron p]

?

[meow_meow]

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

Just be very careful. Not looking for the needle is not the same as finding the no-needle.

Enlightenment is very real and there are false enlightenments that exist. Do not believe that you do not exist. Look closer with less dogma and you will find that you still very much believe you are human.

You won't get enlightened with self enquiry unless your immensely gifted and consistent for maybe 80 years. Maybe. Very low chance. Get yourself into Mexico or the Netherlands or the Amazon if you don't want to get 5meo illegally. There's a lot of nice theory that is talked about, but 5meo is really required for serious growth

Maan, if i'd get my hands on psyches that'd be great. I've never even tried them because I have no access to them and due to Covid it's not possible to travel to any of these places that you mentioned. Anyway, I hope you're exaggerating on 80 years .. How come some people 'get' there without psyches at all.. So I guess it's still possible.

So what to do in the mean time while we are stuck at home? I'm basically just sitting in silence for the past weeks and doing some visualizations and general self-help exercises.
 

[Thought Art]

@meow_meow For me after this past year of inner work, Yoga, Reading, Contemplating, Qigong,  psychedelics etc. I am finding self inquiry and journaling to be absolutely crucial. The field of potential is huge. A problem I have with where you are in this post (I have been here before) is that you don't know what you don't know. I have had many awakenings and I never could have seen them coming. This beast, this maze of life is so huge that if I am going to get from where I am, both materially, socially and spiritually I see that asking and answering high quality questions is crucial. To really wrap your mind around this... it's A LOT  Sometimes it looks like trying a stretch, or a practice, a food.... There is layers to this shit. 

Insights feel really good and are one of the fruits of just being alive. So don't quit! Eureka moments are amazing.

Which honestly, If. I am going to be on this earth for the next 70 years.... There is so much new stuff to discover. 

Let the awakenings unfold how they will. The more you read, practice and experience the more you will realize it is worth it. Sure, there well be challenges. 

Sometimes a trip can start rough, but can get sweet once the egos in the room dissolve and love comes in.

I don't believe that there is one solid enlightenment but varying degrees and kinds of enlightenment. I think enlightenment can be a goal, but it won't be that image you have in your mind that is for sure. Especially if like me you are still working through neurosis and inaccurate models of reality. There is a lot of spiritual gold out there for sure. 

Alan Watts is good, but direct experience is king.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Thought Art

[Nahm]

Self Inquiry

...Focus on the feeling of being "me," to the exclusion of all arising thoughts... 

...If a thought does arise, ask yourself to whom this thought is occurring, as this returns your attention to the feeling of being "me."...

...Many people misunderstand the self-inquiry technique to mean that the person should sit and ask themselves the question, "Who am I?" over and over. This is an incorrect understanding of the technique. The questions "Who am I" or "To whom is this thought occurring?" are only used when a thought arises, in order to direct attention back to the feeling of being "me." At other times the mind is held in silence. 

Having An Inner Smile

...Sometimes we can get in our own way by striving too hard or taking life too seriously. Smiling and lightening up can be beneficial for both physical and mental health. Having an inner smile means we’re greeting our experience with more kindness and openness. As Thich Nhat Hahn says, “You need to smile to your sorrow because you are more than your sorrow.” Holding an inner smile also reminds us to keep a sense of humor and avoid being too hard on ourselves. 

Lovingkindness

...This meditation technique will enhance your feelings of unconditional love towards other people. It will also help you to love yourself. It reduces feelings of judgment and condemnation, and increases the sense of compassion, connection, and open-heartedness. You will radiate a sense of peace, love, happiness, and comfort to all around you. 

[Aaron p]

4 hours ago, meow_meow said:

How come some people 'get' there without psyches at all

Sometimes some special, gifted people get a weak enlightenment after a lifetime of practice with no psych's. It's rare tho. You also have to consider, do you actually want enlightened or do you just want improved life. (I'd recommend actually going for enlightenment). 

[Megan Alecia]

Osho- life itself is the goal

[How to be wise]

@meow_meow It’s impossible to reach enlightenment without a practice, otherwise the whole world would be enlightened! So what other choice do you have?

[Someone here]

@meow_meow

Awesome insight.  but it must be earned and fully grasped tho... See 

Truth comes when you give up on going somewhere. But you'll only have the wisdom to see that after looking everywhere other then nowhere. So go look.. absolutely everywhere for the truth.. and then when you're burnt out.. rest in the now.

 

[Leo Nordin]

4 hours ago, Aaron p said:

Sometimes some special, gifted people get a weak enlightenment after a lifetime of practice with no psych's. It's rare tho. You also have to consider, do you actually want enlightened or do you just want improved life. (I'd recommend actually going for enlightenment). 

Hello Aaron. Lets go more deeply into this, I know nothing much about drugs yet because I haven't tried them nor heard any guru supporting it. Except actualized(and I don't understand him) nor have I listened to him much. 

What do you refer to as enlightenment, you experience enlightenment every night in deep sleep don't you? When you die you achieve enlightenment don't you? In the sense we know it and discuss it, it is both an realisation, the awakening to what is or the experience of oneness. Living life to the fullest the way that life chooses. It cannot really be explained but can be experienced. 

What is a weak enlightenment? What does that imply. If true enlightenment is death. Is weak enlightenment living in non duality without conflict but still in big expression with the earth? 

And what it that psychedelics achieve, heightened awareness or expression of life, or something, describe please. You should just do whatever you want to do, if one second that is to be drugged that is fine if consciousness choose that. But in such a space you have limited yourself as a being. So what does psychedelics achieve? Deep sleep is already strong enlightenment, living to the fullest will of life is weak enlightenment, according to you. But what is the kind of enlightenment that is achieved through psychedelics that you so speak of? 

Lets tonight together be aware of the moment when life slips into death, then the same the moment life enters consciousness again in the morning:) certainly time moves quickly in this free enlightenment that we all experience. So the day you are living life to the fullest time should also move very quickly. Hope that made someone realistic something?

[meow_meow]

14 hours ago, Someone here said:

Truth comes when you give up on going somewhere. But you'll only have the wisdom to see that after looking everywhere other then nowhere. So go look.. absolutely everywhere for the truth.. and then when you're burnt out.. rest in the now.

Okay, but I suppose I'll need some pointer to where else to look?

As @Nahm said "Focus on the feeling of being "me", and that's exactly what I've been doing most of the time. 

[Salvijus]

@meow_meow Look...there is no end to meditation practice. You think Mooji or Echkart Tolle got enlightened and stopped meditating? No, they made meditation into their permenant state. Echkart tolle is in meditation 24/7 for like 40+years. Same as Mooji. You have to reach this state where presence is no longer an effort for you but your natural state. Then you will grow without even trying at the speed of light because there will be unbroken meditation in you every breath that you take. When you reach permenant state of presence you can stop self-inquiry at that point. But you need it to leave the earth's atmosphere. Once you leave the atmosphere, You're done.

Good luck and keep growing, wishing you well ? 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Salvijus