Force perhaps necessary for quitting addictions ; Truth not helping self-actualising

[lmfao]

I've just been wondering about it recently. I have lots of different addictions in a sense, but perhaps a lot of them lump together under a fewer number of abstract forces. 

With porn for example (just one example), a few times I tried this approach of saying "okay, just do it, but be conscious and pay attention to the process". I mean it made me aware of a few things, muscle tension patterns, made me interested in asking whys and go on a mini googling spree to research theories as to why X fetish or etc exists. But i'm not sure if such an approach of mindful indulgence works, for me.

Which is why I'm now open to forced abstinence being an important part.


I'll write a bit about my thoughts on how enlightenment or truth relates to self-actualising 
___________________________
A few days ago I was doing a lot of intense writing and journalling with myself. Trying to examine all my emotions and trying to see what was "absolutely true" beyond all relativity/speculations. Examining all fears about life being meaningless, solipsism, time and death. It's very difficult to open up to this and examine your fears fully and objectively. You end up with a lot of "I don't know" in verbal format, but also sometimes you use one concept/framing to negate the other concept you have.

I then had for some minutes or hours a sense of "clear sight" with current experience. I have no better way to describe it 

Why I'm saying this though, is that it made me realise that the absolute truth gets you nowhere and you get nothing. "Spiritual Enlightenment" changes nothing. The relative world still exists (and requires solutions at that level?). The relative world being my life as an ego, costume, personality, bad habits, flaws, shadow, lack of life purpose. Those things exist, before and after truth.

"Whatever is true was already true, so nothing changes". Whilst that might vaguely make sense intellectually, once you experience it that quote makes a lot of sense. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by lmfao

[Danioover9000]

@lmfao

4 minutes ago, lmfao said:

I've just been wondering about it recently. I have lots of different addictions in a sense, but perhaps a lot of them lump together under a fewer number of abstract forces. 

With porn for example, a few times I tried this approach of saying "okay, just do it, but be conscious and pay attention to the process". I mean it made me aware of a few things, muscle tension patterns, made me interested in asking whys and go on a mini googling spree to research theories as to why X fetish or etc exists. But i'm not sure if such an approach of mindful indulgence works, for me.

Which is why I'm now open to forced abstinence being an important part.


I'll write a bit about my thoughts on how enlightenment or truth relates to self-actualising 
___________________________
A few days ago I was doing a lot of intense writing and journalling with myself. Trying to examine all my emotions and trying to see what was "absolutely true" beyond all relativity/speculations. Examining all fears about life being meaningless, solipsism, time, etc. It's very difficult to open up to this and examine your fears fully and objectively. You end up with a lot of "I don't know" in verbal format, but also sometimes you use one concept/framing to negate the other concept you have.

I then had for some minutes or hours a sense of "clear sight" with current experience.

Why I'm saying this though, is that it made me realise that the absolute truth gets you nowhere and you get nothing. "Spiritual Enlightenment" changes nothing. The relative world still exists (and requires solutions at that level?). The relative world being my life as an ego, costume, personality, bad habits, flaws, shadow, lack of life purpose. Those things exist, before and after truth.

"Whatever is true was already true, so nothing changes". Whilst that might vaguely make sense intellectually, once you experience it that quote makes a lot of sense. 

   This also has happened to me recently, when I'm applying mindfulness to my sex craving, then all of a sudden I'm shooting my load multiple times after a few weeks of abstaining from porn. I've maintain formal and informal mindfulness practices, the informal ones especially for triggers while I was abstaining.

   I might try out the brute forcing method or sedona methods, and distract and be busy doing whatever work, like art or exercising, despite the urges.

[lmfao]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@lmfao

   This also has happened to me recently, when I'm applying mindfulness to my sex craving, then all of a sudden I'm shooting my load multiple times after a few weeks of abstaining from porn. I've maintain formal and informal mindfulness practices, the informal ones especially for triggers while I was abstaining.

   I might try out the brute forcing method or sedona methods, and distract and be busy doing whatever work, like art or exercising, despite the urges.

Right

[Gesundheit]

I'm doing a huge project this year on addiction recovery. Make sure you check that out in the journals section.

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

I've just been wondering about it recently. I have lots of different addictions in a sense, but perhaps a lot of them lump together under a fewer number of abstract forces. 

That's precisely correct. The main abstract force that is causing the addictions is lack of awareness.

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

I've just been wondering about it recently. I have lots of different addictions in a sense, but perhaps a lot of them lump together under a fewer number of abstract forces. 

With porn for example (just one example), a few times I tried this approach of saying "okay, just do it, but be conscious and pay attention to the process". I mean it made me aware of a few things, muscle tension patterns, made me interested in asking whys and go on a mini googling spree to research theories as to why X fetish or etc exists. But i'm not sure if such an approach of mindful indulgence works, for me.

Which is why I'm now open to forced abstinence being an important part.

This approach is not going to work unless you have a strong disgust of the addiction or desire to let go, and even then you're gonna need consistency over a period of time. Change does not happen auto-magically, usually. It requires conscious effort.

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

I've just been wondering about it recently. I have lots of different addictions in a sense, but perhaps a lot of them lump together under a fewer number of abstract forces. 

With porn for example (just one example), a few times I tried this approach of saying "okay, just do it, but be conscious and pay attention to the process". I mean it made me aware of a few things, muscle tension patterns, made me interested in asking whys and go on a mini googling spree to research theories as to why X fetish or etc exists. But i'm not sure if such an approach of mindful indulgence works, for me.

Which is why I'm now open to forced abstinence being an important part.


I'll write a bit about my thoughts on how enlightenment or truth relates to self-actualising 
___________________________
A few days ago I was doing a lot of intense writing and journalling with myself. Trying to examine all my emotions and trying to see what was "absolutely true" beyond all relativity/speculations. Examining all fears about life being meaningless, solipsism, time and death. It's very difficult to open up to this and examine your fears fully and objectively. You end up with a lot of "I don't know" in verbal format, but also sometimes you use one concept/framing to negate the other concept you have.

Who wants to know? And why? Why not just not-know?

Remember, the point here is to go meta as far as you can. It doesn't really yield much to try examine yourself from the same level. You have to examine from above.

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

Why I'm saying this though, is that it made me realise that the absolute truth gets you nowhere and you get nothing. "Spiritual Enlightenment" changes nothing. The relative world still exists (and requires solutions at that level?). The relative world being my life as an ego, costume, personality, bad habits, flaws, shadow, lack of life purpose. Those things exist, before and after truth.

"Whatever is true was already true, so nothing changes". Whilst that might vaguely make sense intellectually, once you experience it that quote makes a lot of sense. 

Of course! But also not. Because at the level of the absolute truth there are no problems and no solutions. There is one flow of life, and you just align with it. If it is addictions, it'll be addictions. If it is desire to quit addictions, it'll be desire to quit addictions. Either way is absolute truth. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that well because the absolute truth is everything that means change is impossible, because it's not. You can create change in your life and it will be absolute truth. The question is whether you actually deeply really want that change or not.

[lmfao]

9 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

This approach is not going to work unless you have a strong disgust of the addiction or desire to let go, and even then you're gonna need consistency over a period of time. Change does not happen auto-magically, usually. It requires conscious effort.

I've never seriously got into, but it seems like a spiritual approach to building yourself up with these things is the building up of "concentration power". Like training a muscle.

But of course one needn't say that's the only approach, but it's perhaps something to try or to do alongside other things. 

9 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Of course! But also not. Because at the level of the absolute truth there are no problems and no solutions. There is one flow of life, and you just align with it. If it is addictions, it'll be addictions. If it is desire to quit addictions, it'll be desire to quit addictions. Either way is absolute truth. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that well because the absolute truth is everything that means change is impossible, because it's not. You can create change in your life and it will be absolute truth. The question is whether you actually deeply really want that change or not.

I get you. Change is still possible with these things, and it might depend how seriously you want it. 

Which "I do want" seriously , but perhaps the habits and entire coping scheme which is also me doesn't want. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by lmfao

[Gesundheit]

@lmfao Would you take 1000 bucks and quit porn addiction once and for all? Or would you rather pay 1000 bucks and still do it?

Edited January 1, 2021 by Gesundheit

[Nahm]

14 hours ago, lmfao said:

The relative world still exists (and requires solutions at that level?)

The solution is always letting go, and is never solving thought with more thought. As such, there is no actual solution, there is only letting go of “the problem” perspective. The so called duality of a relative world is not something which is ‘out there’ somewhere, it is only apparent as thought. Letting thought go is like expressing emotions, emptying the cup. There is no “cup”.  

[lmfao]

@dflores321 I guess it's building that awareness which becomes the problem. Becoming conscious about how everyday you take a swig of poison of your own volition. 

Poison is an extreme word, perhaps it could be more mellowly described as settling for mediocrity and being half alive. 

--

One random thing that's crossed my mind about all this is considering "what channel are you watching". "Don't watch a horror movie, change the channel" is something I once heard Sadhguru say a long time ago. For some reason it clicks and resonates now. In regards to improving your life or improving yourself. 

And so putting yourself in different spaces, through forcefully abstaining or whatever other external means, it's changing your channel. 

---

@Gesundheit Well ain't that a funny a question. It's basically asking me if I really want to quit this addiction or not in a bouncy and clever way. 

People who are addicted to cocaine have to actually pay money for their addictions. 

 

Since you said "porn addiction" and not porn entirely ever, for sure I'd take the $1000. But I wasn't immediate to answer it, because on some level I enjoy my poison and am scared to give it up. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by lmfao

[lmfao]

@Nahm good point that thought doesn't solve thought, could say to not see that is a starting point for all resistance and problems. 

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

The so called duality of a relative world is not something which is ‘out there’ somewhere, it is only apparent as thought. 

Hmmmmm 

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

Letting thought go is like expressing emotions, emptying the cup. 

Yeah, it is as you surrender taking a position on anything.

There'll be judgements and positions you take on things which are taken for granted/(being axiomatic), untill you then notice it and question it. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by lmfao

[Danioover9000]

@lmfao  Have you tried an NLP process on unwiring your addiction?

[Gesundheit]

@lmfao I wonder why would you call it poison though? It gives me the impression that there's something like a chemical substance that you get off to through that addiction exclusively. If that's the case, is there a way that you can somehow extract that substance and examine it scientifically, and then look for it in other stuff? In other words, what is the thing that you're looking for exactly when you're watching porn? Like on the deepest level, what is that thing? Is it a feeling? A state of consciousness? Certain thoughts? What is it? Like if you're locked up in a jail cell or lost in the desert with no internet access whatsoever, what would you have to do to get that poison? Maybe if you can answer that question you will be able to solve the problem on a deeper level.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Gesundheit

[SamueLSD]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

letting go of “the problem” perspective

How would this stop addictions? 

Isn't it important that we care deeply about these things, in the form of acknowledging ( or creating ) solvable problems?

Edited January 2, 2021 by SamueLSD

[Nahm]

@SamueLSD

Addictions are often a coping behavior for an emotional misunderstanding related more fundamentally to identity. You could aim to stop the addiction in the behavior sense, and you can aim to release the emotional misunderstanding prior to the coping behavior. There are lots of ways to go about it. A dreamboard full of what one wants can also be very inspiring.