Why do stage green cancel people when they are supposed to be the stage of inclusion?

[andyjohnsonman]

It would make more sense for a different stage to be caught up in cancel culture don't you think? Not the inclusive stage.

[Rilles]

Theyre inclusive of minorities and the downtrodden. Not the abusers and despots. Thats one of Stage Greens limits, how can we have a good society if you ignore the evil people, they live here too.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Rilles

[Eph75]

Post-modernism value people, expression and feelings highly, which is where green lives, but in doing so there is a selectiveness around which groups are viewed as "in-groups" that are respected, and others that are viewed as "out-groups" that are ignored or demonized.

We see this manifest in many different ways, cancel culture is one of these where the views of the "out-group" is simply shut down, invalidated and ignored. 

Social media shuting down individuals and groups that are causing ripples that won't and can't be explore is another. 

Respecting all gender identities but demonizing white CIS men is another. 

Fighting for feministic values among Western men while ignoring the growing misogyny through immigration is yet another. 

The common denominator is that the values in themselves are sound, yet the predetermined split into groups that are deemed valid and those deemed invalid. 

Argumentation around these obvious flaws is fairy straight forward and staying in such argument will grossly reveile those flaws. That's why we don't usually see constructive discussion around highly relevant topics that need deep exploration.

Argumentation is met with aggression, discussion wants safe spaces there ideas are not being challenged, polarization grows, opposition is cancelled out and so on. 

This will only hold up for so long before it all breaks down, and the trouble with this is that a lot of things will need to break before they can be rebuilt. Unfortunate collateral damage. 

See it as the youth of a green revolution. The 60's hippie revolution was too narrow and too isolated to make much of a dent, and it ebbed out eventually. Today there are a lot of green and green-aspiring politicians that fuels this revolution, and also the news-media and social-media along with internet phenomenon greatly changes the game. 

In the green we see there isn't just love, there is a lot of love, but there is a lot of deep hate as well.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Eph75

[Eph75]

25 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Theyre inclusive of minorities and the downtrodden. Not the abusers and despots. Thats one of Stage Greens limits, how can we have a good society if you ignore the evil people, they live here too.

And it gets complicated when those "abusers" turn out being included within those minority "in-groups". The abusors are still needed to be found within the "out-groups" which makes for ineffectiveness around making actual change, fighting windmills for breadcrumbs while not seeing, or ignoring, grave problems within the "in-groups". 

It all gets very subjective and based on feelings and less objective action and impact oriented. Centered around protecting ideological values more so than actual change/effect/improvement. Very ineffective and often times misdirected. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Eph75

[Eph75]

1 hour ago, andyjohnsonman said:

It would make more sense for a different stage to be caught up in cancel culture don't you think?

Nothing excludes different stages shadows operating through the values of a later stage.

Anger, aggression, power for example - red.

Grouping, we-they-think where "we" are ultimately good and "they" are seen as bad, devils, demons and are dismissed without consideration, religion-like conformity - blue. 

[Twega]

• Why do stage blue religous people act immoraly and spread evil when they are supposed to be the stage of morality and order?
• Why do stage orange materialist act in ways that damage their material body (pesticides,pollution,junk food) and the earth in which they depend when they are suppose to be the stage of materialism and results-driven?

Green isn't any different, it uphold relativism and distains ultimate truths, yet the claim that everything is relative is a statement of an ultimate truth.

The reason is people are unconscious about how they hold their values, and so they often fall in the trap of commiting or creating something which is the opposite of what they believe or want.

[Eph75]

Blue, not necessaily moral but creates structural order through specific moral values. It's more about conformity that brings predictable order to chaos than high morale per se. Levels of morality is independent from SD. 

Orange is result driven and uses strategies to achieve results, highly useful, but the drive is egocentric, for personal gain, or in groups if the purpose of the group serves the personal agenda. Earth, people, health is simply collageral damage in the strive towards personal success, which is status oriented. 

Green stage is still a 1st tier stage where own stage is seen as the highest development and the spiral isn't seen. The values move from materialistic gain to humanistic values, but it still demonizes others just like all stages in the 1st tier does. 

True inclusiveness through understanding systemic interconnectedness is a yellow trait, inclusiveness through understanding of structures and not value driven per se. And here's where all perspectives become seen, not just selected perspectives. The understanding of perspectives and the systemic understanding makes effective actions readily available. 

I believe that we humans can and will seemingly adopt values that are other than our own values, which e.g. could look like the Blue stage conformity around religion-like ideology, without actually embodying those values. This would so result in, e.g. seemingly green people expressing green values in a learned and dogmatic way, operating from a lower stage around these adopted green values. Actions seem semi-green but the expression is highly pathological. A phenomenon that is much more than just a lower stage shadows. Green is vulnerable to consensus and a strong voice operating from a different stage around apparently shared goals can and will become dominant in such a scenario. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Eph75

[abrakamowse]

They are not still at the level “love your enemy” inclusive...

?

[aurum]

@andyjohnsonman

Some Greens still seem to believe that the problem really is with certain groups or individuals, rather than levels of consciousness and systems.

For instance, the problem really is the corrupt CEO in charge of the fossil fuel company. And if we could just take down the CEO or get rid of that "bad" company, we'd be okay.

They fail to recognize that by doing this, they are projecting much of the same energy that they claim to be so radically against.

There's a sense of powerlessness here too. If you believe there's these bad CEOs out there causing all the problems, it's going to make you feel powerless. Canceling people gives you a sense that you're fighting the evil and maybe even winning.

[Leo Gura]

Green does not include bullies.

[Jacob Morres]

@Leo Gura but I guess healthy green could? Like seeing where the bully comes from, then having empathy and compassion with boundaries toward the bully 

Or maybe thats not within the spirals reach idk 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

but I guess healthy green could?

No

Accepting bullies requires a Tier 2 level of development.

You can't accept and include something you don't understand.

[Value]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Green does not include bullies.

Green people sometimes cancel people out only for having a different perspective, even if it is a nuanced and holistic view.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Value said:

Green people sometimes cancel people out only for having a different perspective, even if it is a nuanced and holistic view.

Again, because Green lacks the understanding necessarily to distinguish that nuanced holistic view from support of bullies.

Green cancels bullies and everyone who Green sees as supporting bullying.

[Raze]

9 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

It would make more sense for a different stage to be caught up in cancel culture don't you think? Not the inclusive stage.

I think Jonathan Haidt does good research on this. Basically he explains that looking at the data a lot of young people are developing some unhealthy attitudes and mentalities that result in things like cancel culture, call-out culture, etc. It is probably merging with stage green because this would have been the first solid green generation.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Raze

[Eph75]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Green does not include bullies.

"Bullies" indeed, and who is, what makes and why someone is define as a bully is subjective.

Without listening to and exploring understanding of the perspectives of those deemed bullies, each percieved bully - and anyone supporting or defending the line of the ideas of such a bully - is simply defined as "bad" in a constant kind of way. Bad bullies deserve being shut down, and that shutting down warrant themselves becoming bullies in the process. 

This also includes the pointing out of that counter-bullying from a structural POV and its ineffectiveness and counter-productive nature; never budge, even an inch, when dealing with bullies. 

The depth of the problems at hand is as a result avoided. Paths forward and solutions are hence not made available. 

This is the essence of the post-modern contradiction.

And it will take yellow to guide this unhealthy green towards a healtier version of green, towards a balanced state where stretching into yellow is possible. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Eph75

[Value]

@Leo Gura

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, because Green lacks the understanding necessarily to distinguish that nuanced holistic view from support of bullies.

Green cancels bullies and everyone who Green sees as supporting bullying.

Amen

[Carl-Richard]

Tier 1 inclusion: "We're inclusive, and if you're not inclusive, then fuck you!"

Tier 2 inclusion: "We're inclusive, and if you're not inclusive, then we'll try to fix that."

Edited December 31, 2020 by Carl-Richard