DISCUSSION: Tier Two Chat Lounge

[seeking_brilliance]

@nitramadas has wished, and love hath provided...

Here is the Tier Two Chat Lounge. Any one who identifies as stage yellow+ is welcome to participate. Anyone who would like to interact with stage yellows+ may participate. (in fact, all are welcome!) The main point of this thread is to discuss teir two topics and interests.  Please do try and allow space for those who identify as yellow+ to have their voices heard. 

There are basic expectations for participating in this thread :

1. No arguing!!   We do not need to argue about what second tier is, or who belongs. If you can't keep your arguing fingers off the keyboard, then please exercise your self -given right to scroll on. 

2. Post interesting discussion topics.  Don't bore us with a bunch of memes and videos, although interesting ones are welcome.

3. When posting a new topic for discussion, please type 'Discussion' at beginning of post. This will help to find discussion points at ease.  

4. Enjoy!! 

[seeking_brilliance]

@nitramadas I was hoping you'd have something interesting to start us off with.

I know you may feel like one of the only yellow+ members of this forum, but the good thing is that if you begin discussing tier 2 interests on here, law of attraction will kick in and the godlike powers of Google will bring more yellow+'s here for your enjoyment. Win-win! 

What would you like to discuss? The stage is yours. 

 

Of course, if anyone else has any teir-2 topics to discuss, please feel free. I am curious to learn more about this mysterious world of teir-2 thinking ?

 

[mostand]

Multi perspectival

[Rilles]

How do we balance non-judgementalism with anger? Is there such a thing as righteous anger? Not lashing out once in a while (like once every two monthts) when you know youre pissed seems unhealthy and not truly integral.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Rilles

[BlackMaze]

@Rilles anger is a high energy feeling. You can learn to steal its energy and use it to do the right things. Transmute it. Don't just lash out making things worse. 

That said i believe that is almost impossible to be angry if you are really non judgemental. When you can see clearly that a situation that is perceived as something that should make you angry is caused by automated egos you can't get angry. To not get angry at something and to see things clearly starts by seeing your own ego clearly. 

I haven't really studied spiral dynamics but i'm probably a mixture of colors. I believe that it's very easy for this model to become a hindrance for some people if they start seeing the world constantly through this filter. I just liked the question and wanted to answer it. 

[Eph75]

@Rilles 

Unsure about the intended format in this thread, but I'll just add a response to your post. 

There for sure is such a thing as richeous anger, and anger is a magnificent tool that we should use for the benefits it holds.

Anger is just an emotional impluse with the function to make us aware that we need to take action so that we can maintain external boundaries. 

We need to be aware of the vast difference between anger, acting on the emotional anger impulse, and turning anger into aggression. The latter is when we've lost control. Also we need to be aware that people of emotional mastery can appear angry without actually getting carried away with anger into aggression.

Acting on the impulse but not acting in anger. Note that it can be beneficial to appear angry when in fact acting from a controlled place where reasoning hasn't been impaired as it becomes when we've turned to aggression.

Appearing angry is particularly beneficial when dealing with people that use power and intimidation techniques as their tools. And when using the appearence of anger, when getting appropriate responses we can immediately change our expression to a more diplomatic expression. It's a balanced play. 

From a strategic outcome driven mindset  judgementalism is not beneficial, and with that I mean emotionally triggering judgement and not identifying traits which is a form of judgement but functional in its purpose. Functional in terms of identifying situations and circumstances so that we can choose and try particular responses. 

"Lashing out" or "pissed" implies having already lost emotional control and is something we should work on. We don't need to "lash out" to act on anger. Anger is simply an impulse around which we need to turn to our sense-making processens in order to find creative responses. That lashing out implies amygdala hijacking based on previous repressed emotions, emotional wounds and overly sensitive triggers.

Suppression of any emotion should be avoided at all cost, and we need to find creative ways to process those emotions so that we disarm the underlying causes, and present ourselves in such a way that we can maintain internal and external boundaries as well as to better achieve desired outcomes within related situation. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Eph75

[seeking_brilliance]

@Eph75 no specific format, just open chat and discussions related to yellow and turquoise. 

 

[seeking_brilliance]

1 hour ago, Rilles said:

How do we balance non-judgementalism with anger? Is there such a thing as righteous anger? Not lashing out once in a while (like once every two monthts) when you know youre pissed seems unhealthy and not truly integral.

I wonder if guided emotional release meditation would work, that way maybe in the moment when you're pissed there's no need to do anything too rash... 

[Eph75]

53 minutes ago, BlackMaze said:

I believe that it's very easy for this model to become a hindrance for some people if they start seeing the world constantly through this filter.

I agree, especially when used from a 1st tier stage it is conceptual and the dogma from ones own stage development "taint" the viewing of other stages. 

I see it as particularly beneficial for:

A) choosing ones own approaches towards other people to create beneficial responses in others, particularly in meeting the other person on his/her own stage in such a way that he/she allows himself/herself to stretch upwards towards the boundaries of their sense-making. This so that you can catalyze their further development through their own sense-making. 

B) gaining understanding of ones own development by identifying own limitations so that these can be addressed as well as gaining an idea of what stretches are needed to catalyze further development. 

Doing this does not involve categorizing or labelling people, and instead primarily serve our own sense-making and the quality of responses we can choose for ourselves. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Eph75

[BlackMaze]

@Eph75 i see. Yes this way it can be very helpful. Unfortunately what i mostly see when people are talking about spiral dynamics are categorization and labeling.

A) this assumes that someone considers himself belonging to a higher stage than the one he talks to. This might be true but also delusional sometimes. Either way in order to communicate the way you described i think that ego must be held in place. If not can you really say that you are helping someone to grow? Maybe you should also ask yourself if you are really so advanced as you believe. 

[seeking_brilliance]

How about when we start a new discussion topic, we add DISCUSSION: in bold letters at top of post.  This way when scrolling through they will be easier to find. Could a moderator change the third rule to reflect this in my starting post? 

@Natasha @Forestluv etc... 

[seeking_brilliance]

@Natasha thank you, that's perfect! 

[Carl-Richard]

Do you ever doubt yourself and think you're just a filthy little orange man who is deluding himself? 

[Eph75]

13 hours ago, BlackMaze said:

A) this assumes that someone considers himself belonging to a higher stage than the one he talks to. This might be true but also delusional sometimes. Either way in order to communicate the way you described i think that ego must be held in place. If not can you really say that you are helping someone to grow? Maybe you should also ask yourself if you are really so advanced as you believe. 

Yes that's a tricky thing isn't it, and yes, the ego must be held in place.

Entering conversations thinking about development of people isn't a good angle unless your work is doing such development. 

I'm looking at it as catalyzing constructive and collaborative discussion, and if you manage this, that serves a purpose. That's all we can do to help people change themselves, create a space in which everyone can relax and structure their own thoughts into cohesive speech.

The power of the collaborative conversation, and the dynamics of the relationship itself becomes focus points. If these are strong, good things happen, and the content isn't so much in focus but the shared sense making happening at such times, which is happening in everyone involved. The end game can be win-win every single time. 

I get to test myself and grow equally. 

If I'd enter a conversation and having labelled the other individual as wrong or bad, then I would be telling you what is right and good, I'd be forcing my own dogma onto you. Someone will loose and something much greater than the topic of the debate will be lost in the process. 

There are several things coming into focus, maybe better put as several things falling out of focus, e.g. the need to be right, the feeling of knowing, the attachment to ones beliefs, and the attachment to specific outcomes. Such "ego" traits are more-so connected to a need to predict and control where conversations and events should be heading, rather than just flowing with how the conversation unfolds, sensing where resonnance happens and where it does not, and keep experimenting in ones own sense making. 

If we set out to create specific change, we might be in trouble. If we make positive (relative, subjective) change happen, we're ok. 

There's also a point where there makes little sense in trying, where collaborative discussion can't be had and falling into debating makes little sense as involved parties will have turned towards their dogma and defenses which is a regression of and not a stretch of the sense making happening.

There's always another more beneficial time for a conversation, or some other topic of conversation to be had; with someone, possibly someone else.

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you ever doubt yourself and think you're just a filthy little orange man who is deluding himself? 

This was perhaps a separat topic but it goes well hand-in-hand with @BlackMaze's question.

Yes, often so. 

The need to further push ones own development can become strong in an achiever (EDT stage) which is likely to stem from certain pathological phenomena, presenting a particular need/desire to grow i order to overcome "self". 

How would you know that it's not just that orange-or-achiever side of you that is the ego running amock on a power trip?

I think key is in the question itself, and the humility held within the fact that one at all ask oneself that very question. But you wouldn't really know would you? Having that doubt tells you something. If that doubt is missing wouldn't tell you anything, you wouldn't miss it, but would tell something about you 

But that in itself could be form of self-deception and the ego protecting itself, no? 

Impostor syndrom also comes to mind. 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Eph75
Removed dodgy quotes.

[Rilles]

@Eph75 @seeking_brilliance @BlackMaze

Agreed! I dont particularly have a problem with anger or lashing out, just something I've been mulling over for a while. 

[BlackMaze]

@Eph75 great answer 

[WonderSeeker]

DISCUSSION: How to spread Tier Two ideas

In his book The Religion of Tomorrow, Ken Wilber states that stage transformations are marked by a sudden influx of the new stages' values when at least 10% of the population identifies with that stage. Notable examples include the Enlightenment in Europe (blue to orange) and the 1960s in America (orange to green). He goes on to say that some time within the next 10 to 20 years, we will see this happen as 'we' move into yellow. 

With that said, I'm wondering just how we will get there. In what social settings will yellow values get the most attention and spread the fastest? My intuition tells me that there isn't a straightforward answer.

A corollary question is What is the most effective way to spread Tier Two ideas? Thinking specifically, comedy is a potential arena for this, as comics draw large audiences and are massively influential. Then again, I've yet to see a comedian that appears to have transcended green. (Please link something if you think you've found a yellow comedian!) 

[Eph75]

@WonderSeeker

That 10% critical mass for gaining significant traction needs working on the center of gravity (COG) of the society which means Green (G) working Orange (O) and Blue (B) so that the COG can shift upwards. 

Y would seemingly disappear in the noisy G scene, or be working on helping G becoming healthier and more efficient G, so that G can more successfully guide O and B. 

The former you wouldn't notice too much, it would appear being very healthy G.

The latter is likely to be subjected to the cancelling of anyone that appear not aligned with the agenda of G. 

An interesting thing with stages that isn't much talked about is the hopscotch style of advancement up the spiral leaning more heavily on every other stages than the intermittent ones. Either being stronger on the "I" line, or on the "We" line. 

Strong G, presumably having a strong "We" line and B background. Strong O presumably having a strong "I" line and Red (R) background.

The cancel culture along with many other phenomena aren't straight-up G, they're a B shadow with G flavor. B creates conformity to the group by demonizing other groups and by the threat of expulsion [or worse], and the group values don't apply when confronting other groups, e.g. religious style crusade thou-shalt-not-kill-conform-to-us-or-die contradictions. Conformity and structure through it is being built strong around fear of the alternative and individuality is stifled. 

First we have to acknowledge that we're not moving into Y, we're needing to move the COG to solid G and navigate the turbulence around G/B and G/O. 

Y+ "needs" to work the spiral, individually  meeting B, O and G with such approaches that makes sense to them, and help them stretch their sense making towards the adjacent stage. 

Y gains traction where an explorative conversation exists. At the point we're at in this moment, the more or less non-existing collaborate, constructive conversation needs to find a place, and where/when it does, it needs to be moderated in such a way that it stays constructive and open.

Y is the first stage that could gain traction in any societal setting, a societal chameleon of sorts, and working the system without "unreal" expectations on results. 

That's the primary role of Y (and G/Y) that I see, that will help accelerating development in the short-to-medium term.

The year span prediction of Wilber seem plausible within the next 10-20 years, i.e. In the western world, moving from <15% G into G COG, and not Y. 

I believe that this pressure-cooker of a situation we're finding ourselves in at this moment, in the western world, is setting us up for a G shift within that time-frame and once that happens G changes it focus towards becoming open to the 2nd tier stages and a "quantum leap" could happen, into Y, within a smaller time-frame than that of a O/B to G shift.

An aspect to consider here is, as a prominent/influential individual with Y traits, would you risk ending whatever career you have going for you by risking being cancelled out? Maybe. Or, would Y be aware of this risk and do that work in a more-so subliminal way until such a point emerges where openly posing challenges to the system present itself.

Y won't be needing to sacrifice self for working the system, it (system) is greater than that, and it (Y) is not ideological in that way. Sustainable, stable, long-term effects is the main concern.

And, why rush it? That perceived "rush" is not real.

O expression is largely finite and unsustainable, which G addresses, and adds sustainability. Of course, Y resonates with the emergent G values and healthy G will naturally flow with Y.

I hope to see a healthy G COG within my lifetime (I'm 45 yo). Living in Sweden, I strongly believe this will happen before not long, and possibly even an early Y COG. For US, I'm not convinced, considering the large B representation and the challenges it poses. 

That only vaguely touches what you're asking 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Eph75
Spelling fix

[WonderSeeker]

@Eph75 You made a lot of good points there!

Without a doubt Green must become the COG first. As an American I'm seeing feedback for this in our political system (albeit with some regressions into unhealthy Blue as well). I think that unhinged Orange is leading to my generation's strong identification with Green, plus an Orange shadow. Perhaps helping this generation overcome its shadow elements is more important than throwing Tier Two values at it. After all, you can't drive a race car if it is in dire need of repair.  

Also, there is no rush to this "flip." It will happen regardless. Still, I think it's going to be fun engineering it! 

[seeking_brilliance]

2 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Most people on this forum are severely over estimating their development 

Would you like to elaborate? And If this is a new discussion topic, could you edit your post with DISCUSSION  at the top? 

What do you mean by your statement, and do you think it's typical to overestimate ones progress? Like do you see this on the macro levels as well? (social clusters, societies, etc)