DISCUSSION: Tier Two Chat Lounge

[AtheisticNonduality]

Language is annoying.

[seeking_brilliance]

2 hours ago, Hulia said:

What kind of gratitude are you seeking? Gratitude of someone towards you or gratitude of you towards someone? 

I was thinking like opening a well of gratitude from within. There's enough for all of me ?

And also in social situations I tend to forget to be grateful. I've found that things work best when there's harmony amongst the folds. Seeking _graduate would double as a constant reminder. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by seeking_brilliance

[Hulia]

7 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

I was thinking like opening a well of gratitude from within. There's enough for all of me ?

And also in social situations I tend to forget to be grateful. I've found that things work best when there's harmony amongst the folds. Seeking _graduate would double as a constant reminder. 

Sometimes our yoga coaches (the female ones) tell us at the end of the exercise: "Say thank you to your legs, thank you to your arms, thank you to your neck etc. for a great support during this yoga exercise." I cannot open the well of gratitude either. It´s not a great deal to say thank you to your legs, is it? But I can´t!

[Hulia]

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Language is annoying.

Language is amazing. Isn´t the word "amazing" amazing? Because it takes its origin in the maze. This is what I see, when I say "amazing".

A maze... and a mouse in a maze  

[nitramadas]

I'm back. 

Surprised this didn't die immediately, being a thread, and not any kind of section/sub-forum.. Don't know if Leo just disagrees with my idea, or if it's too much work, or if he simply can't be bothered (on top of that he doesn't like me), but cool, this is fine temporarily.  I suppose it is in his immediate interest to avoid me, as any sort of interaction would mean more work for him (as I always point out problems & challenge convention), but.. I've already got an alternative pretty much ready to go, It's just that I'm ill & reluctant to committing to anything right now.  In any case, this forum NEEDS what I said it needs.  That's a fact.  You will never win a debate against a NeTi-man when it comes to UX & untapped potential (or anything else for that matter, lol). 

I mean, are "book reviews" and "video suggestions" really more important than Spiral Dynamics?  OMG, "Suggestions" shouldn't even need their own threads!!!

Now, just because I know Leo is actually a lurker too shy to post anything..

If Spiral Dynamics is NOT complete BS, you can't treat it like an afterthought.  It's more important that EVERY MBTI/Socionics/Enneagram/etc. forum combined.  Yet all I hear is "b-but that's egoistic!".  Shut up! SHU  It's FAR more egoistic to say "well.. it's MY forum, I don't care about what's good for the people or what they want! Fuck 'em! Oh.. and, what's this?!  OwO!  Looks like another one of your 10k word essays!  Wouldn't it be a shame if I just.. deleted it?  Would it?!"  "Y-You wouldn't!"  "Whoops..  Well, I do believe this was just another one of your unsanctioned debates.. we can't be having debates on forums now, can we?  >: ) ".  

(Though he wasn't always like this.. [insert AI generated narrative here]  )':     (I'm temped.. I have GPT-3 at the ready..)

 

 

Anyway, I guess it's a start.  And the Discussion header idea is a good bandaid for this forum! (✿◠‿◠)  But..... NOT GOOD ENOUGH, DAMMIT!  NOT GOOD ENOUGH!  We need ..MORE!

 

What We Need  [Basic Version]  [Raw Ideas]:

• META 
  • Header for referring specifically to the thread/reforms
• COMMENT 
  • Header to let people know they can ignore your comment.
  • Ever read a thread, see that every post is a reply to a reply to a reply, don't know where to start?  Well, if a couple people had a 3 page discussion, and after page 1 it's devolves into small-talk or something outside the original scope of the thread, it could be pretty useful to see a COMMENT header on the posts on pages 2 & 3.  The alternative is to either ban anything that's even slightly off-topic, or to continue to read every single post to see if it's of any relevance to what you're looking for. 
  • Could be used to show support/agreement/disagreement in a debate/discussion without feeling a need to be certain about your ideas.
• ANSWER 
  • Header to encourage people to actually answer the question, rather than "respond" which could be more vague.  "Answer" makes it official that you're attempting to answer the question rather than making commentary or stating anecdotal evidence or a random opinion.
  • Really, anything could be an answer, what matters is that you make it official that you're making an effort to answer.
• DISCUSSION
  • As already in place.
• DEBATE
  • I am ..God!  ヽ( •_)ᕗ
  • Not shitposts, but expecting opposition.  Like discussion, but rather than all vs all, it's all vs you.
• Quickfire rounds 
  • T2–T2
    • Rapid Q&A with no follow ups;  just mapping the appearance of T2
    • Voting on discussion of the day/week
    • Everyone challenging a random T2 weekly
    • Consensus building.  E.g. Can we all agree on what time is?  Can we agree of the best analogy?
  • T1–T2
    • Challenging the T2s, no holding back.
• Exposure therapy
  • Basically, answering deep, personal, extremely uncomfortable questions for the sake of lowering ego.
    • Pre-agreed limits;  limited to emotional exposure, only risky for the ego.
    • Possibly an auto-delete thread feature, only visible to live participants.
• An 'adopt a Tier 1' programme

 

That will do for the basics ?

 

 

I've been told my writing style makes people want to throw themselves in front of a train..  Hope you enjoyed it!

[seeking_brilliance]

@nitramadas I like the idea of more structure to this thread, but I think it's going to be hard enough to get people to type DISCUSSION: at the beginning of each new discussion topic. Not to mention I no longer have access to edit my original post and it's not easy to get it done.  Anyway, I think if everyone just types DISCUSSION :  it will be good enough to quickly scroll through and look for topics. And typically the replies are done with quotes so that helps too. 

[nitramadas]

2 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

@nitramadas I like the idea of more structure to this thread, but I think it's going to be hard enough to get people to type DISCUSSION: at the beginning of each new discussion topic. Not to mention I no longer have access to edit my original post and it's not easy to get it done.  Anyway, I think if everyone just types DISCUSSION :  it will be good enough to quickly scroll through and look for topics. And typically the replies are done with quotes so that helps too. 

Yeah, ideally there would be buttons integrated into the site, but we'd need some sort of a technical Gura for that.. 

Right now it's just bandaids.  

 

I don't really know how stage/tier affects laziness / appreciation for well designed systems, as I don't know any other Tier 2s, personally.  But if they're anything like me, systemic thinkers, laziness shouldn't really outweigh the potential for improvement.  T2 are like a whole other species, ime, and T1 behavioral patterns are so different they're barely worth considering when planning for T2.

 

But damn T2 are so rare, if I wasn't one, I'd probably be having issues from not being able to relate to anyone.  Luckily this is a temporary T2 thread, so nothing really matters in here.  

[seeking_brilliance]

@nitramadas we've been waiting with bated breath for an actual T2 to come in and start an engaging discussion topic. The floor is yours ?

[EddieEddie1995]

20 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yellow is the unlikely marriage of radical relativism and unbridled pragmatism. It's like taking the crippling self-awareness of an anxious neurotic and combining it with the stability and charisma of a visionary leader; the openness of an artist and the precision of a scientist; the ability to wield inclusivity and discernment independently across different contexts. The examples of these types of contrasts are endless. A paragraph doesn't serve it justice.

I do like the sound of that hehe 

20 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Standard western definition of self-awareness would simply be the ability to access information about the small self (your earthly identity), which essentially measures the level of self-referential thoughts and metacognition in an individual. 

I do need to research and integrate what some of the words you wrote mean, but from my understanding... Yellow needs to have this "standard western definition of self-awareness" so he could be able to see outside of he's automatic thinking, so then he could use systems that works. And this systems are developed in the process from reading, learning, testing etc.  

I have found that when I started working on my Ti which is developing very fast because of Actualized.org different perspectives and OneNote, Fi that Im developing through meditation and introspection and Fe (this is where I lived all my life until last year  ) that is forcing me to explore different perspectives, is now building me into Yellow. I em INFJ.

I don't know why I wrote that. Im very bad at writing, and also I em confused  Why?

How do I answer your post? In terms of what? Is it an exploration? What do I want out of it? What do you want out of it? This fluidness is making me uncomfortale, but yeah... few month ago I would not bother posting at all,  but now that I healed my Fe trauma and realized that Im writing to myself I donk give a fuck LOL People see what they wanna see (T1), and I em imagining this people (T2)

How would you see Yellow through MBTI?

Thank you for posting! 

 

 

[Happy Lizard]

@nitramadas comment: 

was this how you suggested we use the system for commenting on a discussion? 

(I’m commenting on your system for posting in here)

I love this! I’ve often thought about how such advanced material is covered at actulized.org while being at such grim level of lack of systematic way of arranging things in a clear way such as the one at reddit, which I think is nice, and it has much meta stuff about each subreddit, what is the propose and rules of it are. it feels as if each subreddit is a world in itself. 
 

This would be great if it continues. I’ve been running around hunting for every T2 member I can find here just to get a sense of what T2 is, and my mind is blown each time.

[nitramadas]

Quote

ᗩᑎᔕᗯEᖇ❕ᑫᑌEᔕTIOᑎ❕TOᑭIᑕ❕Ċ̶̡̳͕̳̰͔̳͙̮̥́͐́̔̋̐̀͋͝h̵̨̧̜̩̬̻̳̜̱̗̓̂́̎̉́͊͂a̵̬͉͓͚͈̱̘̲͉͋̈͌̈ͅl̶͕̮̫̩̺̱͉̤͊̔̆̈́̑̚̕̕͜͝͝ͅl̸͉̇̓̏́̊͊ė̶̦̀̀̉̈́̈́̔̈́̍͘n̶̡̡̫͒͒̽̎́͌̔̀̉g̵̪̖͉̩̠͖̠̰̲͌̾̚e̴̛̛͚̻̫̯͖̘̜͙̿̓͜͜|̶̩̍̇̕͝      ◢✥◣  ᑕOᗰᗰEᑎT  ◢✥◣  ᖇEᔕOᑌᖇᑕE  ◢✥◣  ????

On 09/01/2021 at 4:37 PM, Happy Lizard said:

@nitramadas comment: 

was this how you suggested we use the system for commenting on a discussion? 

(I’m commenting on your system for posting in here)

Yes!  As long as it's at the very top and bold.  Though I like to also italicise it & make it all capitals (as you want it to be as distinct as possible from the actual content of your post).

The only obstacle may be the fact that if you want start a reply with a quote, you have to then press enter for a new line & then drag the quote down a line from the top left corner so you have space at the top for a header. 

But the upside is that if you're quoting something that already has a header you can copy and paste the header from the quote.  

 

REVISION:

As you can see, I've just gotten a better idea.  Simply quote someone → adjust the top header quote if needed → That's it.

If you don't want to get in the way of serious discussion, then just bolden ᑕOᗰᗰEᑎT.

Here are my suggestions of use:

• Comment = Ignorable, may or may not be relevant to the topic.  
• Meta = Separate from rest of thread.  Like a comment, but always refers to the same topic of 'optimisation/changes'
•  
•  
• Ċ̶̡̳͕̳̰͔̳͙̮̥́͐́̔̋̐̀͋͝h̵̨̧̜̩̬̻̳̜̱̗̓̂́̎̉́͊͂a̵̬͉͓͚͈̱̘̲͉͋̈͌̈ͅl̶͕̮̫̩̺̱͉̤͊̔̆̈́̑̚̕̕͜͝͝ͅl̸͉̇̓̏́̊͊ė̶̦̀̀̉̈́̈́̔̈́̍͘n̶̡̡̫͒͒̽̎́͌̔̀̉g̵̪̖͉̩̠͖̠̰̲͌̾̚e̴̛̛͚̻̫̯͖̘̜͙̿̓͜͜|̶̩̍̇̕͝ = Calling out someone's BS or confronting them.  "Y-YOU'RE NO GOD!!  YOU'RE JUST SOME KID!!!".

 

• TOᑭIᑕ = Starting a new topic.  I thought "discussion" was a bit ambiguous as it could also be referring to "contributing to pre-existing discussion", and new topic wouldn't be selectable by double click, and new_topic looks fucking disgusting!  And camelCase.. just no..
• ᑫᑌEᔕTIOᑎ = Like TOᑭIᑕ, but less of a general "is SD useful?" and more of a "how did y'all figure out your SD/MBTI/Socionics type?!?!?" or "can someone help me figure out x?".  If someone's asking for specific help, it shouldn't be made into a general discussion, lol.  I'd laugh hard if I saw that..
• ᗩᑎᔕᗯEᖇ = An attempt at a serious answer.
• No category = Assumed to be a shitpost..
• Resource

 

All you do is quote or copy and paste what I put at the top, and make sure only the category for what you're gonna post is in bold; all other categories should remain, but with any bolding removed (ctrl-b).  If you ever wanted to use multiple categories in a post, it would be ideal if you could copy & paste the same header and use it to make a new header with the new category boldened, old ones unboldened.  I think the neatness should definitely compensate for any sort of time delay / inconvenience from pasting the headers.  

I don't know if it's gonna become a "thing", but it would take a very boring T2 to think it's not worth trying.

 

Quote

I love this! I’ve often thought about how such advanced material is covered at actulized.org while being at such grim level of lack of systematic way of arranging things in a clear way such as the one at reddit, which I think is nice, and it has much meta stuff about each subreddit, what is the propose and rules of it are. it feels as if each subreddit is a world in itself. 

I'm really glad you like it!  It's rare to find people who actually like change.  I don't think I know a single one..  Like you, I was disappointed in the organization of this forum, but I'm used to it.  I've written waaaaaaay too many essays on the inexcusable failings of Microsoft, Google, and a bunch of other companies.  When a company has billions it can afford to waste, and when it's largely responsible for shaping the way the whole of humanity interacts with technology, there's no excuse for poor design and.. poor everything.  As a simple example:  How the hell did Microsoft release a dual screen phone only now?  Pretty sure a version of it was possible 6+ years ago.  Yet, somehow..  we got multiple generations of foldable displays before we got a first shitty attempt by Microsoft at a significantly simpler device.. lol.  But that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If you knew the work culture at Intel HQ.. 

Anyway, what I'm saying is:  If we can't expect even the most basic of improvements from the world's biggest companies, we can't really expect old man Gura to take care of the forum, he's not the man once was.. at least when we compare him to the rest of the T1 world.  I like the old man when I see him during his monthly uploads, but I think that's just a mask he puts on for the show.  Here, in the real world, things are much darker..  He's a real mean, grumpy old man here, so it may be best to throttle your expectations..

Back in the day, when I joined this forum I, too, was full of hope.  Hearing the stories of the Yellows and the Turquoises, and how the great Actualized.org was brimming full of them!  But it was all a lie..  The best you can hope for is Green.  You see, this forum was, originally, a "success" forum, primarily for stage Orange.  This hasn't changes much.  If you look at Leo's older videos, you'll get the idea.

But keep in mind, I just like to sound melodramatic.  I can at the same time be 100% sincere and 100% insincere, it's not like there's a "real" me with "real" values/opinions somewhere..

Quote

This would be great if it continues. I’ve been running around hunting for every T2 member I can find here just to get a sense of what T2 is, and my mind is blown each time.

You mean.. mind blown by their complete absence, or by actually finding them?

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by nitramadas

[Zigzag Idiot]

I think this link might be a good resource for this thread.

http://www.consciousdynamicsllc.com/home/levels_of_consciousness.html

See how the description of your enneatype lines up with the descriptions given.,,,,

[nitramadas]

53 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

ᗩᑎᔕᗯEᖇ❕ᑫᑌEᔕTIOᑎ❕TOᑭIᑕ❕Ċ̶̡̳͕̳̰͔̳͙̮̥́͐́̔̋̐̀͋͝h̵̨̧̜̩̬̻̳̜̱̗̓̂́̎̉́͊͂a̵̬͉͓͚͈̱̘̲͉͋̈͌̈ͅl̶͕̮̫̩̺̱͉̤͊̔̆̈́̑̚̕̕͜͝͝ͅl̸͉̇̓̏́̊͊ė̶̦̀̀̉̈́̈́̔̈́̍͘n̶̡̡̫͒͒̽̎́͌̔̀̉g̵̪̖͉̩̠͖̠̰̲͌̾̚e̴̛̛͚̻̫̯͖̘̜͙̿̓͜͜|̶̩̍̇̕͝      ◢✥◣  ᑕOᗰᗰEᑎT  ◢✥◣  ᖇEᔕOᑌᖇᑕE  ◢✥◣  ????

 

41 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

I think this link might be a good resource for this thread.

http://www.consciousdynamicsllc.com/home/levels_of_consciousness.html

See how the description of your enneatype lines up with the descriptions given.,,,,

Now THAT is a top tier resource.

Though, as I have to critique everything..

Quote

allows the universe to reveal itself while playing a part in its unfolding
the Renaissance Self envisions new ways of being for all

DO I allow the universe to reveal itself while playing a part in its unfolding? lol, who writes this?!?! lmao

And I'm a... "Renaissance-Man" now?  lol, the fuck is that?

 

Ok, let's go down a level:

Quote

the Unified Self, recognizes that pain is an integral aspect of existence, and
that pleasure is possible only when contrasted with the pain. This realization
brings freedom of heart, and the Unified Self can turn his mental abilities to
integrating complex concepts that address existential issues and world problems

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this guy.  Wait.. isn't this even more abstract than that Turquoise description?  Yet it's somehow not abstract enough..  Pretty sure suffering is NOT a requirement for pleasure.  Did some Green write this?  If we could create a robot body for ourselves that's ULTRA sensitive to meth, and the body was designed to prevent all neurotransmitter receptor downregulation / homeostasis mechanisms, there'd be nothing preventing us from staying high all the time.  And, of course, there are many simpler ways of achieving this.  

Pain is only useful for reminding you how it's not real, how it's all a joke and you should stop taking yourself seriously.  

 

Oh and..  Yellow Sage = "Quantum Healer".. w-wha?!  

*sigh* I guess this is why such ambitious resources are so rare, no human is capable of doing them justice.  You'd have to be a highly intellectual Turquoist who's extensively studied every mainstream cognitive model for at least a decade to properly do this.  There's probably only a handful of such people in the world.

[blackchair]

i "have" to develop to coral, i hate it honestly right now......

 

 

 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

I took part in a year long online group reading of Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson in 2017. Being that it was a small group, it became an atmosphere where we sometimes shared our inner world along with our self observations. It was all saved to Google Drive. The following is what I shared at the end of chapter 43. Thoughts on empathy and compassion in relation to Spiral Dynamics. I’m not claiming what I wrote was spot on. I’m sharing it as just food for thought.  Anyone feel free to give an opinion or question me.

 

DS - More on not expressing negative emotions. I mentioned in one post about the ‘payment’ I felt when achieving this aim in a time of stress. It feels like resolving a disparity in a small puzzle piece of my shadow. On the other side is specific kinds situations in which I continually fail. When I become more than just dismayed and disgusted at my inability to stay awake, a big shift can take place if it causes me to see and feel my own nothingness. The nothingness of my personality/ego self. 

 

Regarding The Tales being overweight in Patriarchy, misogyny, and other biases against the feminine. I've been pondering on the second tier of Spiral Dynamics as being Gurdjieffs intended territory of destination for his persistent readers.
The first level encountered in the second tier is yellow. It has a multiperspectival  approach to learning and gathering information and living in general. The yellow individual is more interested in understanding accurately someone's view than they are in labeling it.
This multi-perspectival kind of awareness is key.
It turns every offensive or seemingly ignorant perspective into a curiosity or a mystery to figure out or understand why it is that people perceive the way they do. But this requires the kind of impartiality that Gurdjieff is talking about.
 

Enduring an injustice,,,,
or being emotionally abused and tormented by someone for months or maybe years.
Being ridiculed,,,,ostracized ,,,, and mocked.
These situations grow us in terms of 'being', faster than anything. That is, if one isn't traumatized beyond recoverability. But at the same time, the amount of intensity needs to be enough for one to be pushed into a kind of state that one has never experienced before. This experience reveals more of what being 'identified' is about. This is a part of second tier awareness.
That's where green and yellow differ in terms of emotional suffering in connection with wanting to be a protector and an advocate of compassion for all apparently disadvantaged beings. From outward appearances green looks more 'spiritual' than yellow. That's because yellow has more impartiality that can be interpreted by some as cold and detached.
People in yellow are not as apt to experience the feeling of pity toward others because they realize it perpetuates unnecessary suffering and is an attitude declaring the Divine to be inept. In the second tier it seems pity is completely replaced by empathy.