The “Spiritual” Value in Suffering

[BipolarGrowth]

All spiritual pursuits I’ve come across in the past seven years of really studying spirituality can be boiled down to humans developing methods to experience states of consciousness or experiences that are desired, if we are being honest with ourselves. To be short, people want everything other than suffering, and spirituality is potentially the most potent method we know of to escape suffering. It shows us the highest of highs possible, but it is ultimately manipulation of this reality to make it more palatable and pleasant. I use the word reality here to describe this thing we currently find ourselves in, so I will use the word reality to describe dreams as well as there is ultimately no fundamental difference between nighttime dreams and this reality on an existential level. It’s all just consciousness at play with itself generating appearances that feel most real when experienced in the home reality/dream. Why do I bring up dreams/the other realities you experience every night? I do so to present the possibility of viewing interacting with realities in a more purist way. If you were to take the spiritual person’s approach to the dream world, they would read some esoteric texts in the dream to teach themselves how to lucid dream, and then they would proceed to remove all things they didn’t like from the dream. The normal person’s approach would be to just go along with the dream/reality by its rules, enjoying simple pleasures whenever they can be found. Isn’t kind of the point of a nightmare to be scared? Sure, suffering in any reality isn’t pleasant, but isn’t it an integral part of the game? I think removing suffering only seems desirable from the limited perspective of one lifetime (at least that you have direct memory of) spent as a human or other living being on planet Earth. If you lived in a reality of constant parties, pleasure, and bliss and possessed the qualities of a full-fledged god, I think you would eventually want to add something else into the mix. Theoretically, in comes suffering and the idea to erase your memory when entering into a new life. Alan Watts actually has a good talk about this concept. I’ve embedded it. As another example, if you were to take a spiritual person’s approach to movies and literature (assuming the spiritual person were living in this movie or book), you would take away all conflict from the story as soon as possible. Where is the fun in that? How boring would that be? Now, of course, spiritual people aren’t the only people who to try to evade suffering, but it seems to be the highest order solution to the problem of suffering. The highest of spiritual masters have supposedly been able to transcend it altogether. 
 

In summary, spirituality is the biggest escapist mechanism humanity has ever found. Maybe we should just live with life as it is without trying to alter consciousness to present itself how we (our egos) want it. Ultimately, survival itself, in any reality, is the attempt to manipulate reality and bend it to your will. Maybe we should stop bending. 
 

 

[No Self]

Your point makes sense from a certain perspective, but the 'selfish' desire to escape suffering is usually just the first step in a process that ultimately ends with discovering one's true nature. The seeker, the 'selfish' one, itself becomes erased in the process and the Self is realised. 

[How to be wise]

@BipolarGrowth You can’t escape suffering no matter how much meditation you do, so I don’t see how it can be used as an escapism. 
 

In fact, meditation only makes you more sensitive to suffering. God’s greatest gift to man is suffering. That’s why there’s so much of it!

[hoodrow trillson]

Escapism?  

The use of this word is based on the assumption that there’s someone here, wanting to exit somewhere “out there” to end “suffering”.  

Spirituality/meditation is used merely to stay here and question our use of thoughts, words and labels as gospel, and begin questioning this “reality” you speak about.  You’re not going anywhere, “reality” is inescapable.  

I get what you’re saying and it makes total sense but I think (lol) what’s really happening, it the opposite of what you’re saying.  
 

Leo made a good metaphor of the movie The Matrix.  Most people think that spirituality is breaking out of The Matrix/reality because it’s an illusion like a dream, right?  It’s actually the inverse—The Matrix/reality is real—but YOU aren’t.  The whole time the entity trying to escape the matrix wasn’t there the entire time lol

[BipolarGrowth]

4 hours ago, hoodrow trillson said:

Escapism?  

The use of this word is based on the assumption that there’s someone here, wanting to exit somewhere “out there” to end “suffering”.  

Spirituality/meditation is used merely to stay here and question our use of thoughts, words and labels as gospel, and begin questioning this “reality” you speak about.  You’re not going anywhere, “reality” is inescapable.  

I get what you’re saying and it makes total sense but I think (lol) what’s really happening, it the opposite of what you’re saying.  
 

Leo made a good metaphor of the movie The Matrix.  Most people think that spirituality is breaking out of The Matrix/reality because it’s an illusion like a dream, right?  It’s actually the inverse—The Matrix/reality is real—but YOU aren’t.  The whole time the entity trying to escape the matrix wasn’t there the entire time lol

The problem with your/Leo’s matrix example is that for the matrix to be real an implication is that you are real. You are part of the matrix. It’s only when you break out the matrix that the you does not exist. I like how Leo prioritizes direct experience, but you have to admit that direct experience has informed you of the existence of an ego, mind, and human body far more often than some state of Love or Infinite Consciousness all the time. 

[Moksha]

Suffering is inevitable. Until it isn't. Sukkha is not only the cessation of Duhkha. It is the natural state of being. Or is it? Find out for "yourself".

[TrippyMindSubstance]

In a way, you definitely hit the nail on the head. If we are honest with ourselves, our spiritual journey is in some way motivated by seeking a better experience, trying to manipulate reality, trying to reduce/escape suffering etc. 

13 hours ago, How to be wise said:

You can’t escape suffering no matter how much meditation you do, so I don’t see how it can be used as an escapism. 

It can, and is very often used as an attempt at escapism. Even if it doesn't work, a lot of people go into it with the intention that it will numb or erase all their suffering. This is fine though, because if you stay honest with yourself during your spiritual journey, you will undoubtably reach a point where you realize you can't just escape everything and you have to face life head on. So even if people go into it with the escapist mentality, the corrective process of the spiritual journey should fix this for you, and the more honest you stay with yourself, the quicker this misunderstanding will get sorted out. 

 

17 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

In summary, spirituality is the biggest escapist mechanism humanity has ever found. Maybe we should just live with life as it is without trying to alter consciousness to present itself how we (our egos) want it. Ultimately, survival itself, in any reality, is the attempt to manipulate reality and bend it to your will. Maybe we should stop bending. 

You can't suppress the urge to manipulate reality. Just suggesting that we should stop "bending" comes with the underlying idea that if we stop trying to do this, life will be "better", which is the exact same as trying to manipulate life to make it better. You will always want better. You are born with the desire to manipulate reality and make it better for yourself. Yes, this desire will cause you suffering sometimes, but suppressing that desire will also cause suffering because then you will just end up living in a shit reality. Just like in buddhism where they say desire is the root of all suffering, but if you try not to desire, you are just desiring not to desire, so you don't really have a choice.

This is where wisdom and experience come into play, which the spiritual journey should help with. Wisdom and experience prevents you from becoming a hedonist, it prevents you from becoming apathetic, and it prevents unnecessary asceticism. It helps refine your understanding of when to put effort into manipulating reality, and when to just surrender to it, which I believe is a never ending process of refinement. 

[BipolarGrowth]

@TrippyMindSubstance I like your points, but didn’t you just make an argument in favor of not bending reality when you used the word surrender? 

[TrippyMindSubstance]

@BipolarGrowth  I'm trying to say there is a balance of when you should try to bend reality and when you should just surrender, but the wisdom to know when to to do each one can only come from accepting the fact that you do have a desire to bend reality, and trying to do it when you really want to, until you eventually learn when it "works" and when it doesn't. 

The other argument I'm trying to make is that in a sense there is no way to not "bend reality". If you say "Maybe we should stop bending", what you're really saying is, "If we stop doing this one thing (taking action) and start doing this other thing instead (surrendering), our lives will be better". Surrendering is an action you take. It's more subtle I guess, but you're still "doing" something that you think will make your life better. 

So if you are honest with yourself and you realize "Yeah I guess I am trying to make my life better by always surrendering to everything" that's completely fine. If this is really what you believe is the best way to make your life better, go all in. Surrender as much as you can until you get confirmation that it really is the best way to make life better, or until you realize it has its limitations, and then adjust your strategy and try something else. 

I guess to summarize, I definitely agree with your point that spirituality is just humans trying to experience better states of consciousness, but thats what everything is, whether you're chasing girls, money, or enlightenment, and there's nothing wrong with that. Don't worry about life being boring after you remove all conflict, because I promise it won't be that easy. The process alone of trying to remove all conflict is "the journey" which is what life is all about.

[Nahm]

Yet, one can be in love with life, doing well, feeling great, enjoying experience, relationships, not suffering at all...just wanting to know if there is a truth or not. And if there is, what it is.