Elliott Hulse has completely lost his mind

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Spiral Dynamics is not designed originally for individuals. It is designed for societies. All societies all over history all over the world have shared the same pattern up to this day. They keep developing until a portion of them reaches Green, and then they collapse. This is an established fact throughout human civilization. Spiral Dynamics makes the additional step in that it assumes that society will not collapse after Green. This has not ever occurred before, and it is very unlikely to occur now. But believe whatever you want, time will tell.

Can you point to countries or civilisations that have been green for a reasonable length of time and then collapsed? 

[Gesundheit]

42 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

First off, The Soviet Union wasn't Green (you're obviously pointing to that). Second, you should be careful with equating one moment in history with another. The idea that history merely repeats itself is a naive notion. It ignores the self-evident fact that society evolves. Even if we were to assume that Green was tried and deemed unsuccessful in one country at one time in history, that doesn't mean it will be unsuccessful in a later time in a different country. You have to take into account the state of the entire world. I mean, Orange wasn't sustainable back when everybody lived in pre-agricultural tribes, but look at today. This is a weakness of the historic model

The way I said it came out wrong. I meant to say that societies keep developing, but not necessarily all of them reach Green. In fact most societies collapse way before reaching Green due to other societies rising to Orange and Green, and therefore in turn suppressing them and causing them to die off early. Green has been the most advanced level any society has ever reached. It's not particularly a revelation that Spiral Dynamics talks about it. It's been known since the 13th century, and maybe even before.

https://qcurtius.com/2015/05/08/the-rise-and-fall-of-empires-ibn-khalduns-theory-of-social-development/

It's not an endless upward Spiral. It's a circle.

Of course, things may change. Who knows? Maybe the SD vision could contribute to that change, I don't know. I only present and deal with facts.

@Consept See the link above.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Tim R]

We need Jordan Peterson to become a hippie, I don't see any other way out. Seriously though, we need a smart and eloquent green role model who optimally already has a pretty decent reach. At least to balance the backlash.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

The way I said it came out wrong. I meant to say that societies keep developing, but not necessarily all of them reach Green. In fact most societies collapse way before reaching Green due to other societies rising to Orange and Green, and therefore in turn suppressing them and causing them to die off early. Green has been the most advanced level any society has ever reached. It's not particularly a revelation that Spiral Dynamics talks about it. It's been known since the 13th century, and maybe even before.

https://qcurtius.com/2015/05/08/the-rise-and-fall-of-empires-ibn-khalduns-theory-of-social-development/

It's not an endless upward Spiral. It's a circle.

Of course, things may change. Who knows? Maybe the SD vision could contribute to that change, I don't know. I only present and deal with facts.

@Consept See the link above.

I would again point to the advice of not blindly comparing one point in history with another. 13th century philosophers don't have the same historical context as the 21th century ones. This idea that societies (or empires) follow this circular trend could certainly apply to the ancient/medieval world, but not necessarily as much to the modern world.

For example, I don't see how this last stage of "luxury" is supposed to refer to Green in any way (I think it's again a conflation of Green with Red). I think you're trying too much to correlate each SD stage with the stages in this different model (doing that is hardly ever warranted).

If this model takes a historical perspective, and if we take into account that Red was still a dominant force in these societies (they were recently invaded by Red nomads), then the last phase is not really inconsistent with a description of an overly satiated Red society. Afterall, monarchy and feudalism is primarily a Red system. Red is not exactly too concerned with work ethic and discipline; instead, dominance and loyalty is the primary order-keeping structure.

To me, if I were to use SD to describe it, the circular model describes nothing more than the tug-of-war between Red nomad values and Blue civilizational values. Remember that Red and Blue will exist together in various degrees as a society is trying to transition from one to the next, and therefore this jo-jo-ing back and forth should be expected.

It's therefore the combination of excess luxury and the lack of structure (Red) that made the societies fall. Blue would dampen the impulsive overindulgence in luxury, and sharpen people's work ethic by introducing restrictions based on transcendent principles. It was the lack of proper Blue infrastructure and ideology that kept them from progressing further. Green was never in the picture.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[StarStruck]

I think Elliott also has financial incentives to double down on blue. If he starts preaching stage green, he won't be able to make that money that he is making right now.  He is an interesting figure but I never bought into him. He speaks with a pompous fake voice and that always came across as insincere.

Edited December 29, 2020 by StarStruck

[Striving for more]

@Tim R Loool imagine J.P comes back on Joe Rogan with a Jesus haircut, jewellery, robe trousers &  smokes a fat J. That would suit him.

 

[lmfao]

@Tim R @Striving for more JP released his first rule for his new book, "Do not carelessly denigrate social institutions or creative achievements" 

He's going down the same path as before lmao. The first rule of a self help book being politically corrupted. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, lmfao said:

@Tim R @Striving for more JP released his first rule for his new book, "Do not carelessly denigrate social institutions or creative achievements" 

He's going down the same path as before lmao. The first rule of a self help book being politically corrupted. 

JP: Beyond order... there is MORE ORDER!  *tyrannical-hierarchical lobstering intensifies*

[Leo Gura]

Beyond Order: How To Turn Order Into Neurosis -- By Jordan Peterson, professional neurotic

[lmfao]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

JP: Beyond order... there is MORE ORDER!  *tyrannical-hierarchical lobstering intensifies*

WOOOOOOOOOOO ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ?

 

[mmKay]

@Leo Gura IMO the mix of him having family as  one of his top values mixed with 20 years of weightlifting embedded into the core of his identity and running a macho man  business held him down too hard and led him to an EPIC backlash when when trying to become green. 

Also it may be related with the fact that he never got into an actual meditation practice as far as I know. Like ever. 

Also I think him hanging out with Owen and learning about all the pick up stuff made him insecure so he crawled and regressed even harder into blue and closedmindedness. 

 

Just speculating here though lol. I appreciate some of his old stuff. 

[Tim R]

29 minutes ago, Striving for more said:

@Tim R Loool imagine J.P comes back on Joe Rogan with a Jesus haircut, jewellery, robe trousers &  smokes a fat J. That would suit him.

I'm sure Joe would simply jizz his pants if this came true

[Tim R]

The real question is: will Elliot ever get out of this "hole"? 

I mean, the stuff he says isn't something anybody would say without being pretty damn committed to it, right? Could he ever get to stage green or at least somewhere close? 

 

Edit: sorry, that's a stupid question. I can't see any way of him getting to green unless he takes psychedelics which deconstruct his whole reality for a couple of minutes, maybe that will get him thinking.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Tim R

[Danioover9000]

@mmKay

5 minutes ago, mmKay said:

@Leo Gura IMO the mix of him having family as  one of his top values mixed with 20 years of weightlifting embedded into the core of his identity and running a macho man  business held him down too hard and led him to an EPIC backlash when when trying to become green. 

Also it may be related with the fact that he never got into an actual meditation practice as far as I know. Like ever. 

Also I think him hanging out with Owen and learning about all the pick up stuff made him insecure so he crawled and regressed even harder into blue and closedmindedness. 

 

Just speculating here though lol. I appreciate some of his old stuff. 

   Despite his current state, he's still one of the few in the fitness industry that was able to go deep with fitness, and broad with different perspectives within fitness and outside it including alternative practices involving the body and mind. It's a shame he regressed despite reading a lot of books.

[Danioover9000]

@Tim R

2 minutes ago, Tim R said:

The real question is: will Elliot ever get out of this "hole"? 

I mean, the stuff he says isn't something anybody would say without being pretty damn committed to it, right? Could he ever get to stage green or at least somewhere close? 

   It might still be possible for him to exit out the hole, but at what degree of difficulty? At this point, he seems to be stuck in a Chinese funnel trap, where the deeper you enter, the more the inward facing spikes will pierce you. If he does choose to exit, it won't be pleasant.  

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Tim R said:

The real question is: will Elliot ever get out of this "hole"?

I wouldn't bet on it.

His survival and identity is totally wrapped up with this. It will be very painful for him to admit to himself that he was so wrong.

Trump supporters will sooner triple down than admit any wrong-doing.

[Rilles]

38 minutes ago, Tim R said:

I'm sure Joe would simply jizz his pants if this came true

"Mellow out broooo! Your room is not that important..."

[Heart of Space]

I only listened to the first few minutes of his speech.  Men are suffering and need advocacy too, I think it's wonderful that men are trying to organize and find themselves.  I think that part of the reason this is expressed in a toxic way is that it is partly a reaction to the progressive left to demonize and diminish male suffering.  

It's a damn shame too.  Can't we all just come to the understanding that suffering appears in infinite form and does not decriminate based on gender or race?  As if you can only love yourself at the expense of another.  

It's as if people think that there's some finite bucket of love somewhere that will eventually run out, so we have to get all of it for ourselves.  It's selfishness with absolutely zero purpose or benefit to anyone.

[Gesundheit]

@Carl-Richard Okay dude, whatever.

[Raze]

WOw the analysis of this thread is weak. You are all way to ideological and quick to put people into categories without considering their underlying psychology individually. If any of you had been following Elliot you'd know he goes through phases. Prior to this Elliot had a feminism phase and said he was trying to become a woman. I believe that he struggled some after getting addicted to marijuana and injuring himself, so his new phase is most likely a backlash too that. Elliott trains a lot of men and young men in America are doing kind of poorly in a lot of areas so Elliott is likely disturbed by some things he's been seeing in his students and probably sees an explanation and an answer in this catholic conservative framework.