Ken Wilber — “an enlightened nazi”

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

What’s your source for this? I think you may be confused, as Hawkins died in 2012 long before Shapiro was on the scene 

Source is one of his books. Forget exactly which one -- he has so many. It's one of the ones on my book list.

Ben Shapiro has been around a long time.

Hawkins had a very pro-conservative and anti-progressive politics.

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Ben Shapiro has been around a long time.

Yep 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yep 

The epitome of self-bias.

It's hard to take a person seriously when they support Ben Shapiro. But David Hawkins has some brilliant spiritual work. Just don't go to him to learn your politics.

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura Yeah there seems to be a strain of spiritual people that have strange takes on politics. For example, see below self help/spiritual teacher endorsing conspiracies about election fraud

 

[andyjohnsonman]

I get the whole states vs stages differences but the only thing i would say is surely even if you are at stage red and have experienced high states of consciousness (I will use that instead of enlightened) the fact that you have had this non dual loving awareness and see all things as one, wouldn't this automatically move you up the spiral? You would understand for example that the whole idea of ethnocentric values is coming from the ego mind and there isn't a difference between a black, white or yellow person which would move you up into world centric surely. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by andyjohnsonman

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

You would understand for example that the whole idea of ethnocentric values is coming from the ego mind and there isn't a difference between a black, white or yellow person which would move you up into world centric surely.

No

[andyjohnsonman]

There must be a relationship between waking up and faster growing up development as it makes you more aware of your limited thinking

[Yali]

12 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

There must be a relationship between waking up and faster growing up development as it makes you more aware of your limited thinking

@andyjohnsonman

They are separate

 

[Carl-Richard]

46 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

You would understand for example that the whole idea of ethnocentric values is coming from the ego mind and there isn't a difference between a black, white or yellow person which would move you up into world centric surely. 

That movement would only be possible if those worldcentric values are already accessible in the cultural environment, and even then, there are additional factors that could prevent those values from being adopted. Seeing through mind doesn't remove you from the laws of nature.

 

35 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

There must be a relationship between waking up and faster growing up development as it makes you more aware of your limited thinking

You could argue that there is, but only within a very strict framework compared to the naive perspective of "enlightenment cures everything". The journey from ethnocentric to worldcentric required thousands of years of sociocultural evolution. Unless you're willing to argue that enlightenment comes with some kind of cultural download package from the spiritual ether, you shouldn't expect those values to just suddenly manifest within the mind of a person.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

ben shapiro is such a sad self biased judgmental individual 

[andyjohnsonman]

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That movement would only be possible if those worldcentric values are already accessible in the cultural environment, and even then, there are additional factors that could prevent those values from being adopted.

 

You could argue that there is, but only within a very strict framework compared to the naive perspective of "enlightenment cures everything". The journey from ethnocentric to worldcentric required thousands of years of sociocultural evolution. Unless you're willing to argue that enlightenment comes with some kind of cultural download package from the spiritual ether, you shouldn't expect those values to just suddenly manifest within the mind of a person.

 

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That movement would only be possible if those worldcentric values are already accessible in the cultural environment, and even then, there are additional factors that could prevent those values from being adopted.

 

You could argue that there is, but only within a very strict framework compared to the naive perspective of "enlightenment cures everything". The journey from ethnocentric to worldcentric required thousands of years of sociocultural evolution. Unless you're willing to argue that enlightenment comes with some kind of cultural download package from the spiritual ether, you shouldn't expect those values to just suddenly manifest within the mind of a person.

But isn't part of spiritual work to question your beliefs and assumptions in order to attain nirvana. If thats the case then you would question the assumption of whether or not you are a human, once you realise you aren't you would also realise others aren't too and are the same, which would make it hard to have this ethnocentric in group, out group ethnocentrism.

Edited December 30, 2020 by andyjohnsonman

[Carl-Richard]

12 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

But isn't part of spiritual work to question your beliefs and assumptions in order to attain nirvana.

Not necessarily. Many people simply wake up accidentally or through divine grace. One example is devotional bhaktis in India. They could be a cultural wreck for all you know. Even then, their progress in cultural awareness is of course relative to their culture.

 

12 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

If thats the case then you would question the assumption of whether or not you are a human, once you realise you aren't you would also realise others aren't too and are the same, which would make it hard to have this ethnocentric our in group, out group ethnocentrism.

Cultural values don't simply come out of nowhere. They're passed down through social interactions (social constructs). Modern cultural values are a result of trillions of these interactions throughout history.

"Human" is a social construct that could mean a plethora of different things depending on the culture. Likewise, the impact of the insight "I'm not human" could have just as many different outcomes.

This is nevertheless peripheral to enlightenment, because it's beyond concepts. It could provide a meta-perceptual frame to an existing cultural perspective, but it cannot suddenly manifest a completely new and complex cultural structure out of thin air.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Raze]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:37 PM, Willie said:

Shinzen Young told of a bodhisattva who was raised as a Hitler Youth. Of course, they needed to grow beyond their upbringing on the path to enlightenment.

Where did he say this?

[Leo Gura]

It's funny that Americans and Israelis love to bomb stuff more than Arabs.

But good luck getting Ben Shapiro to see that.

[Ry4n]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And now, what is the fundamental difference between a Nazi killing humans he finds disgusting vs an enlightened master killing a rat he finds disgusting?

a human is more sentient. lol

[Willie]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Where did he say this?

Sorry, I misremembered. Here:

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

a human is more sentient. lol

Which is totally relative.

From God's POV a human has the sentience of a lizard.

[Ry4n]

@Leo Gura True, which is why some aspects of this work aren't applicable to every day life at all, if one were to try that they'd simply end up a doormat.

[zeroISinfinity]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's funny that Americans and Israelis love to bomb stuff more than Arabs.

But good luck getting Ben Shapiro to see that.

It's not really about nation it's about power holding. Give that ammount of ressources to arabs and you will see same scenario.

self preservation. 

Cheese holder wants more cheese and wants to keep his own. 

Everyone plays in range of their own capabilities. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[Rilles]

7 hours ago, Ry4n said:

a human is more sentient. lol

Thats a thought. You cant possible know that. Youre not a rat. I dont care how many scientific experiements you do. Thats second-hand knowledge, you will never know a rats real POV.

Why is more sentience a reason to not kill someone? If a retarded person is less sentient do you think its okay to kill him/her?

Edited December 30, 2020 by Rilles