Ken Wilber — “an enlightened nazi”

[zeroISinfinity]

Saying and beleiving you are jew, arab, american, russian etc is same as saying you are a lemon. 

[zeroISinfinity]

This also includes all human made distinctions. 

Once you create it you have to protect it. 

Religions for example. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[BipolarGrowth]

Well, I will argue that this does not have to be a contradiction, in theory at least. Before I start, the chance of there actually being an enlightened nazi is of course slim. I had a deep awakening to God’s perspective on good and evil. According to my awakening, there is essentially no difference. A Buddhist monk that has this awakening would continue on doing what aligns with his past routine and beliefs. So he would probably drink some tea and meditate in a nondual state. The nazi who has awakened could very well go on killing Jews left and right knowing that from an absolute perspective it makes no difference either way. A nondual nazi might actually be the worst one you encounter, for if they had the same awakening into good and evil that I had, they could kill without remorse, fear, or guilt. Most spiritual people have a few awakenings and delude themselves into thinking that it’s all about peace and love. These are more human emotional states and ideals than they are Truth. Truth exists as much in humanly conceived evil as it does in humanly conceived good, but you won’t likely hear anyone here telling you that. 

[Ry4n]

2 hours ago, Rilles said:

Thats a thought. You cant possible know that. Youre not a rat. I dont care how many scientific experiements you do. Thats second-hand knowledge, you will never know a rats real POV.

Why is more sentience a reason to not kill someone? If a retarded person is less sentient do you think its okay to kill him/her?

Of course not, but we work with what we have. More sentience being a reason simply makes the most sense, if one were to be forced to kill either a rat or a human, who are you gonna pick? I bet 1 million bucks you'd kill the rat. And if instead of a rat it was a retarded person, I'd do the same. Never said there's anything ok with that though. 

[Rilles]

13 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

Of course not, but we work with what we have.

More sentience being a reason simply makes the most sense,

Why? Thats a claim you need to back up. You cant just say something makes sense without explaining why. 

if one were to be forced to kill either a rat or a human, who are you gonna pick? I bet 1 million bucks you'd kill the rat.

Of course, cus Im a human, I was taught to care about others. Doesnt it make it more true though, its just survival benefit.

And if instead of a rat it was a retarded person, I'd do the same. Never said there's anything ok with that though. 

 

13 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

Heres a thought. Maybe other humans taught you that animals have less sentience because it suits the survival needs of the human race... Interesting... If they are less than us then we dont need to feel guilty about killing them... Theres a word for that... Dehumanization.  

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Rilles

[Byun Sean]

so many myths about enlightenment.

All it is is a direct awareness of what you are.

[AtheisticNonduality]

5 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Well, I will argue that this does not have to be a contradiction, in theory at least. Before I start, the chance of there actually being an enlightened nazi is of course slim. I had a deep awakening to God’s perspective on good and evil. According to my awakening, there is essentially no difference. A Buddhist monk that has this awakening would continue on doing what aligns with his past routine and beliefs. So he would probably drink some tea and meditate in a nondual state. The nazi who has awakened could very well go on killing Jews left and right knowing that from an absolute perspective it makes no difference either way. A nondual nazi might actually be the worst one you encounter, for if they had the same awakening into good and evil that I had, they could kill without remorse, fear, or guilt. Most spiritual people have a few awakenings and delude themselves into thinking that it’s all about peace and love. These are more human emotional states and ideals than they are Truth. Truth exists as much in humanly conceived evil as it does in humanly conceived good, but you won’t likely hear anyone here telling you that. 

no

[Corpus]

On 29/12/2020 at 9:14 AM, tsuki said:

If we want to develop a standard by which we consider people to be enlightened, I think that a good one would be to look at their nicknames. It's obvious that nicknames starting with "t" and ending with "i" express highest enlightenment.

I agree with this. How do I change my user-name from Corpus to Tortellini? 

Again, we have the vagaries of language at work. Nazi as a term can be considered in so many different ways, and that associated with Hitler did not arise de novo, or in a vacuum. There are surrounding world events which shaped its arising including WWI and its triggers/consequences, the havoc and misery the German citizens bore during the Weimar Republic days, communism evolving and getting stronger within Germany and Soviet Russia etc etc. Once Hitler ascended to power there would be clear benefits and practical hindrances which would come with being or not being a Nazi (eg paid-up card-carrying member of the Party, barriers to material survival if one declined an invite to join or had personal objections to signing up) so the whole issue of "Nazi" has many contributors/facets to it. National Socialism (and more derogatorily "Nazi") was the applied label but much of the belief system associated with it actually predated the formation of the party in 1920; two contributors to its under-pinning dogma were Friedrich Naumann who was left-leaning, and Theodor Fritsch who was much more right-wing; these guys were active even before WWI and the German defeat which is "blamed" in part for Nazism. Stuff is always more complicated than it looks.

[tsuki]

52 minutes ago, Corpus said:

Stuff is always more complicated than it looks.

And yet, the foul feeling remains the same.

[Spiral Wizard]

On 12/29/2020 at 9:56 AM, Leo Gura said:

imagine if we called everyone who went to school as "educated". So your kid who finished 5th grade is "educated" and Albert Einstein is also "educated".

this is a great point. 

when using the label "enlightened" context and nuance is required.

consciousness is infinite/unlimited, there are more states, levels, and realms than any of us could ever imagine with our finite/limited minds. Such a beautiful universe...

[saif2]

if an enlightened nazi was transported  to sit with a circle of enlightened hippys what would happen?

[Spiral Wizard]

1 hour ago, saif2 said:

if an enlightened nazi was transported  to sit with a circle of enlightened hippys what would happen?

I'd watch that movie