Ken Wilber — “an enlightened nazi”

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura You are making me laugh! I am well aware of the dangers of the religious right.

If you are interested in a more nuanced view of Israelis check out this Youtube channel: 

https://www.youtube.com/c/CoreyGilShusterAskProject/videos

It's about a guy that goes around asking normal Israelis and Palestinians questions. Some of the questions are very touchy and instagating.
Here is just a little example. You will be shocked to see that most Israelis are reasonable and compassionate human beings and not monsters like the Venezuelan government would like you to think. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

most Israelis are reasonable and compassionate human beings

That's true of all human beings. Including Nazis.

 

[Vrubel]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Surely you are joking.

OMG! I can't believe this, are you seriously not aware that 20% of Israel's population (Israel proper) is Arab and they are even represented in parlement. I expected better of you, maybe a little less Venezuelan state Tv will help(; 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

OMG! I can't believe this, are you seriously not aware that 20% of Israel's population (Israel proper) is Arab and they are even represented in parliament. I expected better of you, maybe a little less Venezuelan state Tv will help(;

Don't even start with me, punk.

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura What I said about people in my town having equal rights (in healthcare, voting and pensions). is a 100% true. I am being very nuanced and reasonable.):

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Vrubel

[Emerald]

22 hours ago, Yali said:

According to Ken Wilber, an “enlightened nazi” is not a contradiction in terms. How is this possible?

Well, enlightenment means to wake up to the fact that you are God and that everything is God.

This is usually accompanied by unconditional love and acceptance of all of the infinite facets of reality... the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Now, typically, in human terms, this translates to a recognition of oneness and a desire to alleviate suffering from others just as there is a desire to alleviate the suffering of the self... because there is a recognition that there is no distinction. This is usually a side effect of getting beyond ego.

But if we supercede the concern for humanity and make it unconditional love and understanding of what is regardless of what is preferable from the human perspective, one could have unconditional love for tragedy, suffering, pain, and all things terrible and to recognize the place of suffering in the world. And then not see any reason to alleviate it because in an infinite reality, there must be all things including suffering.

And this is one facet of God. God abhors neither peace nor war. God abhors neither life nor death. God abhors neither good nor evil. It is the place where all dichotomies collapse and it has infinite love for all of it, all the time, forever. This includes infinite love for the most blissful heavens and the deepest, darkest hells. 

Now, I do think what Wilbur said was still a stretch, because unconditional love reflected through a human lens usually leads to greater levels of compassion and not less.

But unconditional love is truly that... unconditional.

So, just as we can have unconditional love for humanity and living beings... we can have unconditional love for macrocosmic destructive forces like war.

But the idea of the enlightened nazi or enlightened sadist... could happen in theory. But I would suspect that it would make more compassion bloom in them... as long as they applied that compassion to the groups they hate and don't find some way to rationalize things away. And enlightened people can rationalize things away too.

 

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura What I said about people in my town having equal rights (in healthcare, voting and pensions). is a 100% true. I am being very nuanced and reasonable.):

I'm not talking about your town. I'm talking about the entire country of Israel and the stage Blue ethno-state policies they like to practice and the evils that result from such nationalism.

Just because you point out the good parts of Israel does not counteract the bad parts. There were many good parts about Nazi Germany if you ignore the concentration camps.

[Vrubel]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not talking about your town. I'm talking about the entire country of Israel and the stage Blue ethno-state policies they like to practice and the evils that result from that.

Sure Leo, you make good points and I am well aware of the problematic stage-blue dynamics in my country of birth which I guess I love very much and have lots of attachments to. Thank you, I appreciate you having this interaction with me. 

[Leo Gura]

Here's some more fuel for the fire:

In one video James Swartz (enlightened guy) talked about how if he saw a rat in his hotel room he would not hesitate to stomp it dead with his shoe.

In 500 years, if spiritual people hear that statement they will wonder: how could this enlightened teacher be such a monster and not have a sense of animal rights?

Hell, some stage Green unenlightened people have a higher sense of animal rights and compassion today than the enlightened James Swartz.

And now, what is the fundamental difference between a Nazi killing humans he finds disgusting vs an enlightened master killing a rat he finds disgusting?

If you kill a rat does that mean you aren't enlightened? How about a fly? How about a spider? How about a chicken? How about a tree? How about a human? Where does it stop? How big of a thing must you kill for the universe to revoke your enlightenment?

[Farnaby]

@Forestluv @Leo Gura hmm, that's interesting. Don't you think that when you're in an enlightened state and see your ego for what it is, most neuroses lose their power over you? 

IME, more awareness = less "toxic" behaviors, less anxieties and less monkey mind. 

[zeroISinfinity]

Enlightened state=Dead. ?

Sorry guys, had to.

Paradox is it's always the case so.... 

We can speak from relative, why not. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

@Forestluv @Leo Gura hmm, that's interesting. Don't you think that when you're in an enlightened state and see your ego for what it is, most neuroses lose their power over you? 

IME, more awareness = less "toxic" behaviors, less anxieties and less monkey mind. 

One way to look at it is that enlightenment doesn't wipe your hard drive. It just runs a defragmentation on it.

[Rilles]

Dont forget about Choygam Trungpa who was an alcoholic, had a cocaine addiction, and sexually assaulted his students.  

[zeroISinfinity]

Turning blind eye is not maximum of Love will just say that.

Even if everything is  you forever. 

Will God imagine Heaven filled with such stuff? Question this. 

What would God like to be aware off/to be? 

You got your answer regarding nazis etc. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

most neuroses lose their power over you?

No

[zeroISinfinity]

Happy kid or sad kid what you want to be aware off. What your ❤️ says? 

Everything else just excuses. 

Me vs "them". 

Edited December 29, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[knakoo]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Awakening does not make you immune to cultural biases.

Yeah Sadhguru's obvious bias regarding psychedelics is a good example of that. 

[Joel3102]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just to fuck with your mind's a bit more: David Hawkins sung the praises of Ben Shapiro and Shapiro's worldview while denouncing post-modernism.

What’s your source for this? I think you may be confused, as Hawkins died in 2012 long before Shapiro was on the scene 

[knakoo]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because enlightenment does not guarantee an developed mind.

Developing the mind, and proper use of the mind, is a very separate thing from enlightenment.

You can be enlightened and still use your mind improperly. I've seen many enlightened people do that.

The trap here is that once you become enlightened you get the silly idea that now your mind doesn't matter and that you can use it flawlessly. Nope! You cannot escape the mind and its trickeries no matter how enlightened you get.

As an exemple of that, I love this guy and consider him more awake than Leo (very liberated vibe), but he can still believe dumb things like "Yes Trump is fighting a cabal of pedophiles who want to enslave humanity" (paraphrasing).

 

[knakoo]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Would you say this is also true for body feelings and energy? I see a lot of ideas that enlightenment flicks a switch, the body is reborn and there is abiding peace and joy. Can there still be past traumas, repressed emotions and subconscious psychological barriers that may appear in an enlightened being and need to be worked through? Or does it all evaporate?

It seems to me that at a point of "true enlightenment", with absolutely no sense of self and separation left, all of the above could indeed dissipate, but I don't know.