Ken Wilber — “an enlightened nazi”

[Yali]

According to Ken Wilber, an “enlightened nazi” is not a contradiction in terms. How is this possible?

[Lyubov]

it sounds more like some sort of mental game of notions to me

show me an example of an awakened nazi (closest example maybe carl jung?) in actuality and then we can start taking this notion more seriously 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Lyubov

[Yali]

@Lyubov Are you familiar with Wilber’s work? 

[Nahm]

@Yali

It is a contradiction. It might be a concession to the reader, but it’s very misleading. 

[Yali]

@Nahm Are you familiar with Wilber’s work?

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Lyubov https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jung.2012.6.4.98

[Nahm]

@Yali

Not really. Just a few videos. Thought they were great. 

[herghly]

it makes sense.

Waking up and cleaning  are two different developmental paths

As Ken Wilber says

- We've had enlightenment before we ended slavery. 

[How to be wise]

@Yali

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Yali

It is a contradiction. It might be a concession to the reader, but it’s very misleading. 

Not very different to the Buddhist monks who were very nationalistic. 

[Yali]

@herghly how does that make sense to you? 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Yali

[Nahm]

@How to be wise

Not so much the nazi nationalism, but the misunderstanding that there are enlightened people/ individuals. 

[How to be wise]

45 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@How to be wise

Not so much the nazi nationalism, but the misunderstanding that there are enlightened people/ individuals. 

You need to come down from your absolute bubble. We are speaking in the relative plane here. There are awakened people (to various levels) and non-awakened people. 

[How to be wise]

@Yali There are different types of enlightenment. Some of them do not affect your emotional state, meaning that you still hate the same things before and after enlightenment. So if you hated Jews before enlightenment, then you will still hate them after enlightenment.

[Haumea2018]

4 hours ago, Yali said:

According to Ken Wilber, an “enlightened nazi” is not a contradiction in terms. How is this possible?

Because Wilber posits enlightenment as stages of consciousness, while Spiral Dynamics or Integral Theory are structures of consciousness.

So he has two separate tracks of development, stages/states vs. structures. In his view one can be fully developed on one dimension (i.e. what he calls the Nondual state or what I call Unity Consciousness or LOC1000) and be relatively undeveloped on another (Spiral Dynamics.)

But I dismiss much of Wilber's thinking -- or to be fair, how some people interpret him, because I'm not sure he would disagree with my points -- as mainly ivory tower, First World privilege.  There is nothing particularly unique about SD levels aside from such factors as socioeconomic status, being part of a particular intellectual community or group, IQ and personality traits, etc.  It's like if you're a millionaire and live in a gated community shielded from the harsh realities of the world you can say "Oh, I'm Green."  But it means nothing because you are shielded from reality.  You can advocate all kinds of Green policies because their effects won't touch you.  You lose nothing feigning floating on a higher plane of development than the vast masses (and gain social cachet in your community.)  If you live in a much worse neighborhood you might have a different outlook on the value of Blue or Orange.

Back to his statement -- typical of ivory tower thinkers, he can't present a single real-life example of an "enlightened nazi" -- instead it's merely a possibility derived from his theories.  Theory first, reality second.  I would venture to guess that he would have trouble finding such an example, because he doesn't fully understand all the real-life implications -- the psychological development especially -- of the Nondual state.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Haumea2018

[Mu_]

36 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

You need to come down from your absolute bubble. We are speaking in the relative plane here. There are awakened people (to various levels) and non-awakened people. 

Lol, come down from the absolute bubble, we are on the relative plan, LOL.  Nope sorry, there is no relative plane.  The distinctions of either are in the same plane and we are all flying in it, just some have no parachute.  let go of the relative and absolute parachute for a few days, and see where you land.

[Willie]

Shinzen Young told of a bodhisattva who was raised as a Hitler Youth. Of course, they needed to grow beyond their upbringing on the path to enlightenment.

[Mu_]

4 hours ago, Yali said:

According to Ken Wilber, an “enlightened nazi” is not a contradiction in terms. How is this possible?

In the limited time I spent looking into Wilbers views, I'm guessing he's saying, that within enlightenment which can happen at any stage of development, you can become aware of the Truth that what is, is One so to say.  This can happen as a nazi, or as a monk.

[Nahm]

48 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

You need to come down from your absolute bubble. We are speaking in the relative plane here. There are awakened people (to various levels) and non-awakened people. 

The thread is about wether or not “enlightened nazi” is a contradiction.

There are awakened people to various levels and non-awakened people only in thought attachment to misunderstanding. 

 

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@Lyubov https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jung.2012.6.4.98

any way to access the full article ?

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Willie said:

Shinzen Young told of a bodhisattva who was raised as a Hitler Youth. Of course, they needed to grow beyond their upbringing on the path to enlightenment.

That's quite different from the notion of an “enlightened nazi” which would imply perhaps a politician, community organizer, or arian nation prisoner aligned with nazi ideology living from a place of boundlessness, emptiness, non-duality.