Question for Leo

[benny]

@Leo Gura

How much of your understanding of all the concepts/insights/teachings/lessons is deep and integrated vs. conceptual/logical/surface level?

 

Genuinely curious, because I gather it takes a substantial amount of time and effort to deeply grasp any single teaching or insight, and you throw a lot of them out there.

[Leo Gura]

How can such a thing be quantified?

I certainly have a lot deeper to go with my embodiment.

You have to keep in mind though that my primary focus is on understanding, not necessarily embodiment. You can understand far more than you will ever be able to embody in one lifetime.

To me, conceptual understanding is not some dirty word. It's the bulk of my life's work.

[Forestluv]

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I certainly have a lot deeper to go with my embodiment.

You have to keep in mind though that my primary focus is on understanding, not necessarily embodiment. You can understand far more than you will ever be able to embody in one lifetime.

To me, conceptual understanding is not some dirty word. It's the bulk of my life's work.

Are there beings with deeper embodiment than conceptual? Perhaps a kundalini yogi with a relatively simple conceptual framework? 

[Corpus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

How can such a thing be quantified?

I certainly have a lot deeper to go with my embodiment.

You have to keep in mind though that my primary focus is on understanding, not necessarily embodiment. You can understand far more than you will ever be able to embody in one lifetime.

To me, conceptual understanding is not some dirty word. It's the bulk of my life's work.

Could it be that conceptual understanding can never be utterly complete/concluded as the creative nature of conceptualization will always create new distinctions and thus more that can be conceptually understood or considered? Could truly realizing the bottomless nature of the activity allow one to slow down the desire for/pursuit of more of the same, leading by default to greater embodiment/Being rather than feeling that embodiment will arise when "I just get this last bit figured out"? 

Maybe Nahm could add a few words to put a glitch in this ^^ conceptualizing?!! 

[benny]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How can such a thing be quantified?

I certainly have a lot deeper to go with my embodiment.

You have to keep in mind though that my primary focus is on understanding, not necessarily embodiment. You can understand far more than you will ever be able to embody in one lifetime.

To me, conceptual understanding is not some dirty word. It's the bulk of my life's work.

I ask, in part, because of how much you stress contemplation.

 

You go as far as to say that certain ideas must be contemplated for a decade or more. Given the sheer magnitude of work it takes to develop big-picture understanding just from studying the theory, never mind embodying it, I don't see how it would be feasible to contemplate all the theory I study.

 

Sometimes, it seems, certain ideas can be confirmed or disconfirmed simply by field-testing them. For example, pickup/dating/communication theory. I don't need to independently derive the conclusions or contemplate them to put them into practice and see they work.

 

I'm getting the impression that it's up to me to use my judgment to determine when contemplation is warranted. It also sounds like (and is readily apparent) that I will have to be picky about what I choose to embody vs simply understand at the conceptual/intellectual level.

 

Thoughts?

Edited December 29, 2020 by benny
Reads better

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Corpus said:

Could it be that conceptual understanding can never be utterly complete/concluded as the creative nature of conceptualization will always create new distinctions and thus more that can be conceptually understood or considered? Could truly realizing the bottomless nature of the activity allow one to slow down the desire for/pursuit of more of the same, leading by default to greater embodiment/Being rather than feeling that embodiment will arise when "I just get this last bit figured out"? 

Maybe Nahm could add a few words to put a glitch in this ^^ conceptualizing?!! 

Reality is infinite regardless of how much you embody too.

There will always be a neverending amount of spiritual work.

[Lyubov]

8 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Are there beings with deeper embodiment than conceptual? Perhaps a kundalini yogi with a relatively simple conceptual framework? 

I think so. Some people (rare) just are born with a high level of embodied consciousness and have always been light as air. starting from light and walking further into light. They stand out like athletes and prodigies with incredible talents. To say all people are born on an equal playing field when it comes to this would be an inaccuracy. Upbringing and environment will play a role as well. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Lyubov

[Leo Gura]

The thing is, as much as enlightened folk poo-poo conceptual understanding, human society is only going to become even more conceptual in the future. Avoiding concept is not a solution. The way out is through, not around.

Humans need to learn how to use their minds properly. And that's where I come in. Telling people not to use their minds is not a solution to our problems.

[fi1ghtclub]

Leo how do you reckon conceptual understanding can bring about an actual change unless you embody it?

How much do you think embodying an insight and rewriting the narrative around you is important?

Does your conceptual understanding directly co-relate with your behaviour and acts or is it mutuailly exclusive?

How can you cause a structural change with conceptual understanding?

Do you think laying down structures that are the embodiment of all those nuggets of understanding is a better way perhaps to display understanding that comes after those conceptualization frameworks

You have done tremendous work with actualizated.org and it stands as one great example of that

How do you plan to not get lost in conceptualizaton and these grandeur ideas and measure actual growth.

Edited December 29, 2020 by fi1ghtclub

[Visionary]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Telling people not to use their minds is not a solution to our problems.

This is counter intuitively a very embodied thing to say. Very practical and more integrated than most nondual gurus with anti-mind dogmatics preach. 

Can understanding be real without embodiment? 

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, fi1ghtclub said:

Leo how do you reckon conceptual understanding can bring about an actual change unless you embody it?

That's already a bias. For me, understanding is its own end. It does not need to have any practical value. Although of course often it does have a practical value, but I don't really care whether it does or doesn't.

To me understanding is like art. I enjoy it and I don't need a utilitarian justification for participating in it.

But how will looking at art grow me? The correct answer is: It doesn't matter!

Quote

How much do you think embodying an insight and rewriting the narrative around you is important?

Of course embodiment is very important. But it should not be the only thing.

Quote

Does your conceptual understanding directly co-relate with your behaviour and acts or is it mutuailly exclusive?

Most understanding does not require action per se. Some does, but most doesn't.

Quote

How can you cause a structural change with conceptual understanding?

All human advancement is predicated on correct understanding of a thing.

You can't land a man on the moon without understanding physics. You can't cure a virus without understanding how viruses work. You can't fix your life without understanding what's wrong. You can't vote for the right person without understanding politics. Etc.

Quote

How do you plan to not get lost in conceptualizaton and these grandeur ideas and measure actual growth.

There is no formula for not getting lost. You must remain forever conscious and flexible.

In the end, growth for the sake of growth becomes just another tail-chasing activity. There is no end to growth and devoting your entire life to maximizing growth is really not a good attitude because you'll be running like a hamster in a wheel until you die. Chasing growth is not much different than chasing money or women.

Grow as much as you feel you need to in order to be satisfied and enjoy life.

For me, what I enjoy is understanding reality. I don't do it to get something out of it other than joy.

If you don't care about understanding, then do whatever you care about.

[fi1ghtclub]

59 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you don't care about understanding, then do whatever you care about.

I deeply care about understanding. But, it's not just the understanding I care about. It's also about putting the man on the moon based on that understanding is what I care about.

I value your approach to understanding as understanding being a model itself without any utalitarian justification.

What I would like to know from you is this - where would you like to draw the distinction between working on a practical aspect where you can have a system to see and track changes v/s mental masturbation.

[benny]

@Leo Gura

 

Leo, answering everyone's questions but mine?

 

Where's the love, bro?

[longusername12345]

Is it possible to reach a state where you are so united with reality and in touch with Truth that you do not need a conceptual framework, there is no use for it because reality is simply enough? You act with the integrity of the moment and you are so fulfilled with the moment that you do not need more knowledge? Maybe learning has become an addiction for you? But Truth could be debated as addictive I guess. 

 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, fi1ghtclub said:

What I would like to know from you is this - where would you like to draw the distinction between working on a practical aspect where you can have a system to see and track changes v/s mental masturbation.

Well, any such line will be arbitrary and relative.

You can be as theoretical or practical with your work as you like. This will be different depending on what you value most.

Be careful not to dismiss theortical work as "merely mental masturbation".

Einstein's work would have seemed like mental masturbation to most people in his day. Yet it had enormous applications decades later. And Einstein's work would have suffered if he cared much about practical application.

The less practical a thing is, the more universal it can be. There is a trade off here. Being practical is not as great as it seems.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, longusername12345 said:

Is it possible to reach a state where you are so united with reality and in touch with Truth that you do not need a conceptual framework, there is no use for it because reality is simply enough?

Be careful not to conflate conceptual frameworks with understanding.

Understanding is a much deeper thing than concepts. You can understand beyond concept or knowledge.

Quote

You act with the integrity of the moment and you are so fulfilled with the moment that you do not need more knowledge?

You will always need knowledge if you care about living or society.

Quote

Maybe learning has become an addiction for you?

I wouldn't want to live a life without learning. That's not an addiction, it's just something I love about life.

But also, understanding goes way beyond learning.

[benny]

Still being ignored.

[Forestluv]

@benny

On 12/28/2020 at 2:06 PM, benny said:

@Leo Gura

How much of your understanding of all the concepts/insights/teachings/lessons is deep and integrated vs. conceptual/logical/surface level?

 

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How can such a thing be quantified?

I certainly have a lot deeper to go with my embodiment.

You have to keep in mind though that my primary focus is on understanding, not necessarily embodiment. You can understand far more than you will ever be able to embody in one lifetime.

To me, conceptual understanding is not some dirty word. It's the bulk of my life's work.

 

[benny]

@Forestluv

19 hours ago, benny said:

I ask, in part, because of how much you stress contemplation.

 

You go as far as to say that certain ideas must be contemplated for a decade or more. Given the sheer magnitude of work it takes to develop big-picture understanding just from studying the theory, never mind embodying it, I don't see how it would be feasible to contemplate all the theory I study.

 

Sometimes, it seems, certain ideas can be confirmed or disconfirmed simply by field-testing them. For example, pickup/dating/communication theory. I don't need to independently derive the conclusions or contemplate them to put them into practice and see they work.

 

I'm getting the impression that it's up to me to use my judgment to determine when contemplation is warranted. It also sounds like (and is readily apparent) that I will have to be picky about what I choose to embody vs simply understand at the conceptual/intellectual level.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Jacob Morres]

19 hours ago, benny said:

I'm getting the impression that it's up to me to use my judgment to determine when contemplation is warranted. It also sounds like (and is readily apparent) that I will have to be picky about what I choose to embody vs simply understand at the conceptual/intellectual level.

 

can you give me an example?