Harder problem than Consciousness

[Dodo]

..or in other words, here's a problem which you cannot solve simply by being present to the moment

I want to present to you here something which happened to me in alternate reality (it definitely happened within consciousness and my awareness at least) which felt absolutely as real as me typing right now. 

Imagine there is a woman (now every representation here was probably tailored to me and my experience so for another it might be a different entity/representation and not a woman, but the so the story went) who is suffering greatly - being raped and tortured, in the middle of the forces of darkness and the only way to save her is to go in her place and be tortured so that she can be free. She was like a very close mother figure kind of woman and she was strong in being able to take the suffering, thats how it felt, but you want her to be free and happy.

Here's the deal tho, in order for her to be free, you have to go in her place and be tortured. True love is selfless, but to what extent, if you are honest right now, would you swap and feel extreme pain for Her in order to save Her?

Now what happened in my hallucination or experience, that I tried to do it, but as soon as the pain and suffering came, I was so afraid!! I mean the pain is so real, its so real but no guru is talking about it, they all say "suffering is an illusion" but they might not know something. I was moving in different dimensions and being chased to be tortured, but I was so afraid of the pain I kept running and I guess when they caught me and the pain went too much I died to that reality and went to another, in which something else happens... And it was God that was chasing me but I was trying to outmanoeuvre, to outrun, being scared of what I had signed up for trying to be selfless. But God was within me and I felt my heart and life as myself threatened, I felt so vulnerable, God could destroy me as he created me. Here I am talking about my normal human self, which I was throughout that whole thing. 

Then She said "Let him sleep" she was crying to let me back to sleep because She was so protective of me, she would do anything. She would actually take the pain that I was running from. And how quickly did I run, it felt like I am running from the pain that I actually did deserve. Like a mother taking the hit for her son from an abusive father. That's how it felt. 

Truly there are things to fear in this reality, I do not think its wise to say that all is well. That's like poking the hornet nest or like disregarding possible extreme pain that actually exists and is super real if you've experienced something like that. Its more real than sitting on a cushion and feeling empty of content. When you are in that place, you wont be able to find the space to meditate, because you would be chased by someone and you would need to actually play the game and fight for the Good and for peace, not just saying its all good already.

Nonduality is like a permission slip for evil, you can normalise it in that way by saying its all good, all one. Yes it is One, but it is also many. So there might be a spiritual battle going on and we are asleep to that and just looking after our own egoic enlightenment where we feel great here and now, but not acknowledging there might be Pure Evil lurking somewhere that is NOT KNOWN to others. That is the most horrific thing, someone right now could be suffering greatly in the real world as well from the hands of pure evil and nobody BUT GOD would know about it. 

I guess I had to get that out of my chest. I wish to bring the light of love in the corners of reality where things are hidden and there is pain right now and nobody knows about it and nobody is trying to help. May God help those who are forgotten, weak and unjustly hurt. May God bless all who are not wicked. I dont know if anyone will read this cause it became quite lengthy..

So what would you do, would you suffer greatly for someone you love or someone who has decided to suffer greatly for you? Like a sinister game, a nightmare...

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[Tim R]

49 minutes ago, Dodo said:

they all say "suffering is an illusion"

I don't think any guru would say something like that. They might say "you suffer because you are under illusion (attachment, ego, etc.)", but suffering itself is definitely real and not an illusion. In fact the Buddha said "life is suffering" as his opening statement, so.. Suffering is not an illusion. Maybe it is in the final analysis, but the illusion is real and so the consequences are real in a certain sense, too.

49 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Nonduality is like a permission slip for evil, you can normalise it in that way by saying its all good, all one.

Not if one has truly understood nonduality. You don't walk around seeing all the suffering in the world and brush it off, saying "oh that's nice, that's good, nobody's suffering". 

Quite the opposite is true - you walk around seeing all the suffering, saying: "oh that fact is not good - it's suffering and it's real despite the fact that it is GOOD". Of course it is GOOD. But its suffering and suffering is real to those who suffer. The illusion is also Real, that is nonduality.

Maya and Brahman are identical and so all the suffering is just as real as Brahman.

If someone hears about Zen for the first time, they might think something like "oh well, apparently I'm the Buddha anyway and so I can do whatever I want to do! Time to wear filthy clothes, steal things, be selfish, be violent, I'm the Buddha, I'm enlightened, I'm God, I can do as I goddamn please!" - but that only shows, that one hasn't yet truly understood, because if you did understand and you really knew it to be true, you wouldn't have to say or do it!

49 minutes ago, Dodo said:

So what would you do, would you suffer greatly for someone you love or someone who has decided to suffer greatly for you?

@Dodo But I understand the predicament. Depends on the person I guess. How much guilt is involved? You said she was like a mother figure, so maybe one feels guilty towards her and thinks that it is your duty to suffer, in order to... what - expiate? 

Would you feel guilty if you wouldn't take away her suffering? Observe this guilt, what is it? 

It also selfishness. So what are you to do?

- Not to help is selfish and you feel guilty because of it.

- To "help" doesn't happen out of love but out of the selfish desire to get rid of you guilt by expiating!

So you always end up being selfish. And then you feel guilty for that. It's a perfect trap.

All you can do is realize that the trap isn't real and that there's nobody trapped - and then what?

Well then you realize that you can't do anything wrong. And so this question about whether to help this poor person or not has no right nor wrong answer. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Tim R

[Dodo]

@Tim R I was feeling both a victim and a saviour. Like I was going to defeat the evil with my special knowledge (cause I kinda know the truth even though I cant put in words, since its the page hahah) . I looked up definition of psychosis yesterday and its like literally that, what I experienced. But it was way too real for me to label it as psychosis. Like psychedelic trips people keep saying how they are not just their imagination, but real... In the same way, but I've never taken psychedelics to know what kind of hallucinations those cause.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[Dodo]

Has anyone in their hallucinations heard of Mr. T and had a theme about actors? Its like they were all reporting to Mr. T, he was something like the boss

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[Tim R]

5 minutes ago, Dodo said:

@Tim R I was feeling both a victim and a saviour. Like I was going to defeat the evil with my special knowledge (cause I kinda know the truth even though I cant put in words, since its the page hahah) . I looked up definition of psychosis yesterday and its like literally that, what I experienced. But it was way too real for me to label it as psychosis. Like psychedelic trips people keep saying how they are not just their imagination, but real... In the same way, but I've never taken psychedelics to know what kind of hallucinations those cause.

 

Hang on - you didn't experience this on any psychedelic? 

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

Hang on - you didn't experience this on any psychedelic? 

Yeah. Its a long story that involved running and some coding and some powerful words ( like I requested to have our light bodies ) and I was able to be energetic without the need for food and then I thought I am supposed to ascend and I thought everyone is ascending because the planet is doomed etc etc some crazy stuff I wont do it justice by talking about it, has to be experienced. Like trying to write about the sex with your partner, its just not the same talking about it and a lot of important details are lost  

 

edit: Glad Im back really but it was interesting version of reality. I was connecting my Heart with Earth's Heart and I was always visualising the toroidal field around everyone I see and was pressing the + (cause its like a magnet) to go up and ascend.. I tried to code this too to ascend the whole planet and then some other crazy experience happened where I thought I had succeeded.

In another experience I was running and doing some selfless stuff on the street, like fixing the bins of people and throwing some rubbish away but I was running really quick and I could only see males.. And I was told by my intuition or God or whatever that was that I should not look into anyone's eyes and just keep going because everyone I see is asleep and they wont see me if I don't stop. Then I saw a guy going in with a small underage girl and I knew he was going to sleep with her...I immediately jumped in to help cause I felt very strong, full of energy and I pulled the man and he transformed into some younger man and started running... Then a black woman appeared out of the house and asked me "Who are you?" and I didn't know how to answer and just started running, but then some black guy came in and hit me really hard, but I kept running, hoping that I would escape... 

Then "police" showed up and placed handcuffs on me, but those handcuffs were SO painful, like fire, and getting tighter and tighter... It was not normal handcuffs and I previously felt untouchable, even the black guy who was much stronger than me did not knock me out and I had escaped him, but now I felt totally vulnerable... It was like God telling me not to be a vigilante because there are forces stronger than me... Felt like spider man being caught by the police... What is strange they just appeared in front of me, it wasn't like normal way you'd think police would catch you.

 Then since I was not in the normal reality, I thought I had been caught by the forces of darkness and I was about to be tortured, but the cops were 2 - one was a man and the other a woman. The woman was showing me 2 fingers as if to indicate that the forces of good are also there, thank God. She was like an angel and told me to relax. But really this experience has showed me that me as Dodo is vulnerable. I will not continue the story altho theres much more that happened after that, but it will get too long.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[James123]

2 hours ago, Dodo said:

re's the deal tho, in order for her to be free, you have to go in her place and be tortured. True love is selfless, but to what extent, if you are honest right now, would you swap and feel extreme pain for Her in order to save Her?

If the awaken person saves hundreds of people with advises, providing money to poor, elderly and saving the kids and families from abuser religious cult leaders with teaching to truth, does it worth for 1 life of 1 person? 

[Dodo]

17 minutes ago, James123 said:

If the awaken person saves hundreds of people with advises, providing money to poor, elderly and saving the kids and families from abuser religious cult leaders with teaching to truth, does it worth for 1 life of 1 person? 

Well im not even talking about life of a person, but about torture. See I was seeking for death at one point as I thought there is no way out, but they could read my mind, they knew everything I wanted to do and there was no hiding spot. See im not talking about the life of a person. This is not the trolley problem. 

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Well im not even talking about life of a person, but about torture. See I was seeking for death at one point as I thought there is no way out, but they could read my mind, they knew everything I wanted to do and there was no hiding spot. See im not talking about the life of a person. This is not the trolley problem. 

If you be stuck in the hell for ego death, you see what real torture is, Hell is your MONKEY MIND. 

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, James123 said:

If you be stuck in the hell for ego death, you see what real torture is, Hell is your MONKEY MIND. 

Oh bro.. If you ever go to the place I went to you would understand this stuff about monkeymind is just monkeymind. There is an actual place and actual power which can judge you, knows all about you, can access your deepest memories and fears, all your actions, can access things from your subconscious that you don't even know about. It could recreate nightmares, it can create people... Do not subscribe to knowing what hell is. Monkeymind is far from hell. Its quite cute to think like that tho  

 

[James123]

@Dodo  ??brother, you have never born. Your birth is just a process of thoughts. You “think” you have a mind or “you” as “body” in “world” now? 

Edited December 24, 2020 by James123

[Dodo]

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Dodo  ??brother, you have never born. Your birth is just a process of thoughts. You “think” you have a mind or “you” as “body” in “world” now? 

Thats how the story goes

You need fingers to type on this PC don't you? For fingers you need a beating heart, don't you? What if there is a God who can take your heart away... Brother if you can say brother, you know what a heart is. If you're on this forum you have a beating heart. That's not your mind. 

There are some stories more real than other stories. Don't overgeneralise, its a mistake. Or otherwise why call me brother. A family implies birth. There is no brother without birth. I know very well what you're talking about too, that you're consciousness etc etc, I know that stuff, there are just other dimensions to reality also. 

 

Is your heart moved if you see someone being wronged? Do you get that feeling inside saying "this is wrong"? Or have you desensitised yourself. Imagine someone fabricates lies and everyone beliefs them because they sound believable. 

A trick

devilry, true devilry.

Imagine it.

There are examples of this in real life, but you wouldn't know about them by definition. You would believe the false movie that is shown, not the actual movie that happened. We wouldn't know about it, only God would know about it. In your fantasy you're God, but you might have just been shown that false movie and believing it, not knowing that you're believing it.

Then When truth comes, and the real events are shown, justice will be here. Something like this:

 

 

This kind of concept, but on a grander scale. And nobody would believe the truth, because they have been all shown the CUT version, not what happened behind the scenes. 

[Nahm]

Great new documentary on Amazon called Losing Our Religion. Check it out. ?

[James123]

@Dodo when you realize the truth, you will realize that these all words are identical, and i am you. Because we are all nothing. I call you “brother “. Because words are still have a meaning for you, which demonstrates that “duality “ still “exist “ for you. You should work on awakening brother. Because suffering wont end for you, as clearly can see from your post.

Peace! 

[Sam Johnson]

@Dodo

Yes there is pain, but trust me, being alive is love. 
Eternal being would be boring if there were no challenges, no headaches, no pain. Being created implies being finite, having a beginning. This is not the case. There is literally no beginning and no ending. 

Life is the golden ticket. Being is the golden ticket. Experiencing is the golden ticket. And no one can ever take infinity away from you. You have it. You can’t not imagine how much love it is. Whatever you do. Whatever happens. You are in the candyshop with free candy. 
 

you have the golden Ticket Holding in your Hands. Open your eyes. 

[Sam Johnson]

@Dodo

its not about trying to be selfless. It’s not an attainment. Not a good manner. It’s is you realizing that you truly are selfless to the deepest core of your being. It’s the journey to who you are. It’s the journey of you facing all your fears and insecurities bit by bit only to realize the selfless, most loving, most authentic fearless warrior that is within. Which is you. And always were you. 
Maybe today you might run away afraid of the pain running  for your life screaming why why why. Maybe tomorrow you won’t run away. You will stand there unshakable in the face of death with tears of joy in your eyes. Because you faces it. You overcame it. No one but you. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Sam Johnson

[Dodo]

@Sam Johnson but it's not even about death here, I am talking about real pain that you would wish you would be dead not just some pain of overactive mind or egoic identity, but actual torture. But your words are beautiful and I thank you, very helpful.

@James123 ok i understand you're playing the enlightened game. You don't yet realise you might not know what you don't know. Sounds a bit arrogant how you assume my internal state just by my sharing an experience I've had within my consciousness. You might have more work to do, don't sound enlightened yet enough to fool me.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[Dodo]

@James123 if you really got the realisation that you're no-one how come you enter this convo like that. No ones are more humble than that 

1 hour ago, James123 said:

@Dodo when you realize the truth, you will realize that these all words are identical, and i am you. Because we are all nothing. I call you “brother “. Because words are still have a meaning for you, which demonstrates that “duality “ still “exist “ for you. You should work on awakening brother. Because suffering wont end for you, as clearly can see from your post.

Peace! 

Words have a lot of meaning. For you also, or you wouldn't understand me. 

In the beginning was the word. 

The page is the page. The book sells when there are words on it. The book's reality is the page and the words. There is no book with just pages and no book with just words.

It's your preference to place focus on the page. I get it. But you are trying to deny the word when you don't know how powerful it is. 

I will repeat

In the beginning was the Word

And then there was light

Ps: there is also a difference between true word and true story vs false word and false story/lie. Seems to me you're throwing the baby with the bathwater in an attempt to feel good about yourself. 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[Dodo]

@James123 but Its ok man its easy to get trapped in that state where you think you're enlightened because you live in a comfortable place and people are somewhat well behaved. In another scenario your "enlightened " non thinking persona would not work and you would need to act differently. Seriously you would not get it just by our conversation.

Here on this forum we are just having a couch discussion. Congratulations for not feeling suffering on your comfy couch in your house. If the story were different, trust me, you would cry to go back to where you are now and will realise how good you had it. Trust me. The story matters a lot. 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dodo

[James123]

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

but Its ok man its easy to get trapped in that state where you think you're enlightened

I am enlightened is just a thought. The biggest prison is belief of me. 

 

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

but Its ok man its easy to get trapped in that state where you think you're enlightened because you live in a comfortable place and people are somewhat well behaved. In another scenario your "enlightened " non thinking persona would not work and you would need to act differently. Seriously you would not get it just by our conversation.

Here on this forum we are just having a couch discussion. Congratulations for not feeling suffering on your comfy couch in your house. If the story were different, trust me, you would cry to go back to where you are now and will realise how good you had it as a hunan. Trust me. The story matters a lot. 

How do you know? Maybe 'ı'have lost everything that connects 'me' to life, and help those elderly, poor and innocent people, who are suffering? Maybe even saved some people who were about to get hurt for something that they werent responsible for?  

2 hours ago, Dodo said:

ou don't yet realise you might not know what you don't know. Sounds a bit arrogant how you assume my internal state just by my sharing an experience I've had within my consciousness.

I respect that, The answer that you have got is the truth. Your real enemy is not your experiences, personal opinion or ideas. Your enemy is yourself (İmam Ali). Maybe you are little too sensitive? İt was an honest and helpful answer. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by James123