I Finally Got It, Iraq Is A Psuedu-Country.

[Hatfort]

@Vrubel I'm open to reading what he has to say about the topic and I have the right to share what I think as well, I'm not lecturing him down, we just disagree. But one thing is sharing different points and disagreeing, and another is what he is constantly doing, putting words, ideas, or assumptions on me and what he calls people like me, because it makes the discussion more convenient for him and that are not true. He is manipulating and, not only I'm not going to take it, but I'm going to address it when it happens. So you get over that.

The Irak war saved him from serving in the army, as he has stated. For thousands of others, it was death. After the war, there wasn't peace for many years either. He is also depicting the Kurds as mere tribes, but it seems not everyone agrees with that either.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Hatfort

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian

Look, I have also experienced injustice and that brought scorn and wrath into my heart and I can totally understand your situation.

But for your own sake take down the pace a little and leave more room for "maybe". With your shown attitude you will crash into a wall eventually again.

Let me give you an anecdote. In Germany at the beginning of the refugee crises we put every nationality into the camps without seperation. And what happened was, people of different nationality blamed and hated each other and so we got a lot of brutal fights and even deaths in the beginning. But then we started deporting the onces that had hatred and violence in them ( at least in my state saxony ) and now different middle eastern nationalities are getting along.

Well, it is nice to hear that people  are getting along after deporting the most problematic, but for my new notion of no Iraq, I am betting my future on it. There's no room for 'maybe'. See I've told my story for  countless people and how I ended up isolated  because I took the good side and tried to work on myself and gain my freedom within my society, but  nobody seems  to  care! I've lost all my civil rights in this country, and I am 3rd class citizen now. I cannot have a passport, and I cannot buy or rent a house, or buy a car or start a business, all because of the rigid society which requeres that someone belongs to a family, and I is locked, I cannot change it. When I tell my struggling, people sometimes have the audacity to tell me at least where you live is better than North Korea! But when I started saying Iraq is not a state or a country, we are finally talking. At least there are two people who are arguing here otherwise, which means my argument might have some validity in it. 

I am freed from a dictator but then trapped in my society, and everybody blaming the process that freed me, and wanting to keep this society with all its fault alive, on hope that we can fix something here and there and make it work, I want to shatter this concept, and I want to regain my freedom back. 

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Mesopotamian Nobody can choose where they are born and you have definitely been dealt a bad hand. As a westerner, I will probably never understand your struggles and I can only give you my sympathies for I can see you are trying to be the best you can be and that is damn admirable. 

While I see how many of your points are very valid and that green and Marxist dogmas sound very cringy trying to "lecture" you. I will ask you to reconsider your position on the Kurds. The Kurds are not a purely tribal people, in their region they have stable government and security. This is the product of a healthy stage blue organization. I have actually known some Kurdish people and as I understand the Kurds see themselves as one nation and are loyal to that nation more so than to their individual tribes or religions. Not to mention they did an outstanding job kicking out ISIS out of their territory.
I sense some antagonism you have towards the Kurds, perhaps due to your upbringing in a tribal society. Please forgive me if I sound ignorant or out of touch but can you choose to live in Kurdish territory? As at least there they enjoy stability. (or is this not possible due to tribal tensions and the autonomy that they have there?)

HI, thank you for writing, I don't think  I can ever be offended if you keep writing to me. I live among Kurds after I fled ISIS from Mosul   before they arrive, and I love Kurds, some of them became my new family now, of course I have to act as conformist to be accepted as a friend. 

Kurds are living  the nested delusions, They think that one day they can cut pieces of four countries and join them together. In fact there's no unity between one city and another  even in say Iraqi Kurdistan, You would be amazed to  hear racism some of them speak against Kurds of other cities. I am sure if you had chatted with them, you would sense the racism towards Arabs, and a similar but lighter version towards each other. 

The government they have is a weak lose management system, they are bunch f tribal people who are dressed in stage-orange capitalist business suits, with tribal mentality. 

They are not loved by majority, but they are there because people are afraid of chaos, although there are some attempts to revolt lately if you follow the news. 

There's no democracy in Iraqi Kurdistan, and it is ruled through families who inherited power. And, it is a pain in the ass to move from one city to another, which only   consolidate the separation and division between people. 

There's no stage blue like for example Iran, and the country has no clear direction. Zero industry, and all heavily depended on aids from Baghdad, and they are playing a devilish role actually because they Wan to be the balancing power, but they don't give a shit about pushing forward, not for them or for the rest of Iraq. 

They fighting ISIS is a myth actually. They fled and let down the Yazidiz to be massacared because they are  heavily under-trained,  and good portion of lands under their control fell to ISIS. I was there,  and I know I shouldn't trust them while I was in  a town on the out skirt of Mosul where they were illegal situated because they wanted to claim portion of Mosul to join theirdream region, so I fled deeper to their capital, slept the night, and woke up again to the news of the town  fell to ISIS. 

They fought ISIS ony after  the international coalition was formed, but before that it was all retreats, and a part of why ISIS came to be the way it is because of their carelessness and selfishness, because they are thinking that they have a piece of the cake of oil money, and then they were asking for land according to constitution, and they cared nothing about anything that was going on in Iraq back  then, even the extreme instability in the nearby Mosul, which sometimes they feuled ISIS with money through smuggling and other activities.

[Mesopotamian]

32 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian

I mean, but if the people around you are too ignorant what will shattering do? You would need to exchange people's minds or they fall right back into old habits.

You would need higher guidance to keep ignorant people satisfied and you away from their consequences.

32 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian

I mean, but if the people around you are too ignorant what will shattering do? You would need to exchange people's minds or they fall right back into old habits.

You would need higher guidance to keep ignorant people satisfied and you away from their consequences.

I am under the impression that it won't be too hard to bring this to people's attention.  If   millions are dying because to keep a notion alive, and if everyone  is  blaming something for that, then  it  is my turn, I blame the delusion, and I want it to stop. People have to understand, either to make things work,  or   to let go of their notion of Iraq as a country. I cannot live this lie anymore. I am so cornored that if I go for vacation, I might return and the tell me that for reason or another I cannot stay in the hotel that I am in right now. 

As I mentioned,  I have no documents, no passport,, and I am promoting gambling and porn websites because the shit that happens here scares me, and I need to get some money for the future. Others are committing suicides in alarming rates. In 2019 500 people killed in protest juet because they are delusional and they think they can protest and fix things, so the militias that are in power killed them like sheeps. (According to Aamnesty International 500 or 900, you can look it up). So there's so much energy spent on keeping this delusion alive. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Mesopotamian

[Mesopotamian]

2 hours ago, Hatfort said:

@Mesopotamian Did you just say that I'm not ready to accept that people and politicians lie? lol, accept it is an understatement. Again, instead of making your points, you make up all kinds of false statements about me and you discuss with that depiction instead because it's easier. I'm not going to even go through that garbage you tell about delusion. What you are doing at this point is gaslighting, pure manipulation, but I wasn't born yesterday.

I didn't like what happened in Irak, I've stated many reasons why. You don't agree, fine by me.

I need you to   stop  believing what  you  are believing. I've met  countless  people  in person who   have  same ideas like yours.  From many countries and continents. It doesn't matter if  you  are from America or Estonia, you all share he same mentality, you want to babysit kurds, and you think you know better than everyone. Yes you were trying  to lecture me, downsizing my suffering, and also my person gains out of this situation that freed me from Sadam and his family. I am 100000000x times better now. I don't have to sign a paper that let's the Iraqi intelligence to search my PC whenever they want as a condition of giving me access to one-way internet connection at home. I could right a book about how my life is better now, but I want to focus more on how to deal with the current situation that I found myself in. I need people to stop blaming the west for the miseries of Iraq, and start finding a real solution, solutions that works, because this can't continue forever to be apologetic to Iraqis in general, and to certain groups in Iraq, you are trying to impose victim mentality and this will only make things worse for us, and also for you, because you will keep seeing shit happening that doesn't ake sense. 

 

 

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian Look, first I'm sorry you have to live in a clearly unfair situation, with no real freedom or opportunities even after the democracy has been established. As it's been said, sometimes it's not enough to overthrow a tyrant, development doesn't occur overnight, societies need time to evolve.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say Irak is not a country. Unless you mean something different with that word, what we usually understand with it is a politically independent piece of land with its own laws and sovereignty, differentiated from others around. Well, man, Irak is a country right now by that definition. One piece of land that is not is, for example, Kurdistan.

So about Kurdistan, the more democracy comes to Irak, the more difficult is going to be to hold this region unified. From what I'm seeing, it's not a minority of them wanting independence, it seems an overwhelming majority. In the non-binding referendum for independence celebrated in 2017, over 90% of them voted in favour and 70% of the population voted. That's sustainable only with force, I think the independence of Kurdistan is inevitable in a medium-term, at least the part from Irak. You say you are friends with some of them, but in general, you've spoken very negatively about them. I'm sure they are not perfect, but some of the problems you point about them may be precisely caused by the fact that they live under laws dictated by others and sometimes against them, which they may start fixing once they get a real degree of independence.

[Mesopotamian]

UPDATE TO MY THEORY: IRAQ SHOULD NEVER ALLOWED TO BE A FUNCTIONING STATE FOR THE SAKE OF UNIVERSAL GOODNESS

Thanks to the two American wars on Iraq on the 90s and 200s , the possibility of Iraq becoming a functioning state is greatly diminished. And you people who cry about those who died, and fantasize about a parallel different outcome full of unicorns and rainbows, You most certainly know nothing about how different Iraq is. It is more an animal kingdom than a place to live peacefully.
I mean what's the odds that someone from Iraq would be wise enough and guide the vast resources of this country towards peace and love for all mankind? 

The west literally created modern Iraq Iraq, and gave it oil technology for free, it established the foundation of corruption in this country, Anybody who comes and rules Iraq would not be able to resist creating evil for the whole world, and that's what was happening with Saddam Hussain. He couldn't even rise to stage-orange sort of dictator, but stayed full of delusion and shit, but back then is ass was sitting on a good percentage of the world's oil. I am so glad and relieved that this Iraq is on a path of disintegration, and it warms my heart that it would happen.

For those who don't want to see this happening elsewhere, you should seek for better understanding, and try to think about the possible impact before exporting new technologies to places that are not developed enough.

[Mesopotamian]

10 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

As it's been said, sometimes it's not enough to overthrow a tyrant, development doesn't occur overnight, societies need time to evolve.

Thank you for your empathy, yet you are going back to the same old argument. Our societies will not develop, not fast enough. You are creating a delusion. You are telling me that I should wait until the universe grant you this wish.

12 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Unless you mean something different with that word, what we usually understand with it is a politically independent piece of land with its own laws and sovereignty, differentiated from others around. Well, man, Irak is a country right now by that definition. One piece of land that is not is, for example, Kurdistan.

I mean the subject in hand doesn't fit the definition well. The creation of Iraq happened artificially. The concept is heavily imposed over this piece of land, and millions of people can't see that there's no compatibility between the territory and the map. You and other millions are thinking otherwise, that since it has a map and is registered in some organizations, then it should rise to that lever. Well it doesn't, and those millions you are crying they are dead because of that. Iraq doesn't have what it takes to be a functioning country, but I wouldn't say it is a failed state, it is not a state at all. It is a collection of provinces ruled by military force of over 700K armed personnel that makes up tens of armed formation, in addition to coalition-led forces of what, say 30? 40? or 50 countries?

17 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

, it's not a minority of them wanting independence, it seems an overwhelming majority. In the non-binding referendum for independence celebrated in 2017, over 90% of them voted in favour and 70% of the population voted. That's sustainable only with force

Yes it's fucking delusional, They were rallying because these rallies reflects their tribal nature, and they rally all the time in Newruz and burn fire and dance around it. These people have no connection to anything modern, and it is just utter disgusting to to integrate modern concept like a referendum. But it happened anyway. And they suffered, and that's because again people who push them to believe their delusions and announce it to the world, so the referendum was one of those things that backfired. Like who else than delusional people would do such a move while they are surrounded by good established nations who don't want that to happen?

21 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

@Mesopotamian Look, first I'm sorry you have to live in a clearly unfair situation, with no real freedom or opportunities even after the democracy has been established. As it's been said, sometimes it's not enough to overthrow a tyrant, development doesn't occur overnight, societies need time to evolve.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say Irak is not a country. Unless you mean something different with that word, what we usually understand with it is a politically independent piece of land with its own laws and sovereignty, differentiated from others around. Well, man, Irak is a country right now by that definition. One piece of land that is not is, for example, Kurdistan.

So about Kurdistan, the more democracy comes to Irak, the more difficult is going to be to hold this region unified. From what I'm seeing, it's not a minority of them wanting independence, it seems an overwhelming majority. In the non-binding referendum for independence celebrated in 2017, over 90% of them voted in favour and 70% of the population voted. That's sustainable only with force, I think the independence of Kurdistan is inevitable in a medium-term, at least the part from Irak. You say you are friends with some of them, but in general, you've spoken very negatively about them. I'm sure they are not perfect, but some of the problems you point about them may be precisely caused by the fact that they live under laws dictated by others and sometimes against them, which they may start fixing once they get a real degree of independence.

They have nothing ok? they can't make their own pasta, they just can't. A pasta is a simple product. you cannot find Kurdish pasta! Come here to Kurdistan, you can see like 80% of food is imported, because this is how they satisfy Iran and Turkey and stay in power, they import all the food from there. You jusc can't be that stupid to see that people who can't make their own food, and who's peshmarga are nothing but lazy ass people to have independance. Just get it out of your mind. I am sick of this, you are litteraly paving the way to the next genocide. Some people with same mentality like yours come here and share time with Kurds  to "brainstorm" delusions. And you are pushing them to make the next genocide. At this point I am thinking I should block you real soon, cuz it is impossible to make you get away one inch from your initial position.

[Mesopotamian]

16 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian

How is gambling and porn going to help you?

Anyway, so what's your proposal? What do you want to shatter and recreate ?

 

I promote them online to the world through my SEO abilities, and I get bitcoin in return, it will help me one day when disaster hit again.

I want to shatter the delusion of Iraq as a state or a country, cause the map is not the territory. All we have now is a map, and everyone wants to make the territory fit according to it. I want people to get closer to the truth, and the truth will liberate them.

[Mesopotamian]

13 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian  

You want to disband the current government and have independent states create their own each on it's territory? Or form a new one?

I have no plans yet other than letting people realize and see what I see first. I think people are smart enough to know what they should do, but sometimes the impose a state of delusions upon themselves.

[Lindsay]

@Preety_India nice avatar ? I’m not a hillbilly I’m psychotic help me I can’t stop laughing and crying

[Mesopotamian]

15 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian  

You want to disband the current government and have independent states create their own each on it's territory? Or form a new one?

But like, why you are thinking about creating states? I mean why your mind is directed towards this? I hope you notice how you are  tryinmg to cling to the concept of state while I am mentioning my bad experiences about it. I am thinking when you drop a cup of glass on the ground is shattered to pieces, you won't necessary try to build small cups out of it. And the next step is actually not my responsibility alone. It is your responsibility as much as it is mine, because I do have a limited knowledge in building states, and all I saw is a negative implementation of it, which greatly diminished my freedoms as a human being, but on the other hand, it happened that I had an access to a forum like this one where people of higher knowledge than mine meet and discuss.

I would imagine that if you guys want to put Iraq into a good path, you should sponsor my life, and be my teachers/supervisors/and even assistants sometimes because here I am representing a mindset of a rebel that's fed up with everything around him and want things to change even at a greater cost.

[Mesopotamian]

@neutralempty I mean it wouldn't take too much effort and time before my ideas (which I admit some of them are dogmas) to spread along the population, and God knows what type of havoc will occur when (I think you who mentioned earlier) people that are less developped suddenly realize that they were living a lie that's imposed upon them, and this lie IS the main cause of their misery

[Mesopotamian]

5 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Mesopotamian

States will automatically form, there is no escaping it.

I understand your shitty situation and judging by what you uave said it may very well be true, because I have no idea how Iraq works honestly.

I am just trying to look a bit more into the future with my value and that of others.

I mean they should not form. States should not form. Iraq should get back under international guardianship officially, and they should try to work it according the principles of theories like Spiral Dynamics. Cuz right now it is practically under under international guardianship. This should be official

[Lindsay]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:20 PM, Parththakkar12 said:

What you are saying is very interesting to me. I'd never thought of it this way.

I am curious - Do Iraqi passports exist? Do you have one? Can you go to a legit country using it?

The rest of the world does know Iraq as a 'country'. They'll be like 'Yeah, every country has their internal problems. We're going to consider Iraq as a country, so we consider an Iraqi passport as a legit passport' if it is a legit passport.

Spoken like a true goddess