I Finally Got It, Iraq Is A Psuedu-Country.

[Hatfort]

Well, the world is complicated and every country has its own complications. Most countries have sub countries inside of them, others are ex-colonies and others don't have international recognition as countries and are even divided by ones that have, like Kurdistan, for example, but I can give you a hundred more in every continent, except Antarctica.

There may be a democracy now, meaning the view of the majority from Irak will be reflected in the government, which is very possibly not that far from the views Saddam Hussein already had, you cannot force a society to evolve overnight. The war caused thousands of victims, a war that was decided from the outside and those people are not going to come back to life. It wasn't done for the good of the people there, that's extremely naive, it was done for economical and geopolitical reasons that would benefit those who decided to go with it.

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

Well, the world is complicated and every country has its own complications. Most countries have sub countries inside of them, others are ex-colonies and others don't have international recognition as countries and are even divided by ones that have, like Kurdistan, for example, but I can give you a hundred more in every continent, except Antarctica.

There may be a democracy now, meaning the view of the majority from Irak will be reflected in the government, which is very possibly not that far from the views Saddam Hussein already had, you cannot force a society to evolve overnight. The war caused thousands of victims, a war that was decided from the outside and those people are not going to come back to life. It wasn't done for the good of the people there, that's extremely naive, it was done for economical and geopolitical reasons that would benefit those who decided to go with it.

I love the war. I see that whoever does not see it as a necessity is a delusional retarded person. You represent the opposite of what I mentioned in my original post. I think The genocide of the Yazidis happened because of people like you. It is because you push kurds to adopt yet another delusion to have a country of their own. The Yazidis have been used as a card to enforce this fucking genocidal delusional narrative. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Mesopotamian

[Hatfort]

You love war? Sure, tell me that when the next town with more guns kill you and all your kind to take what you have. Because that's war in essence. I think avoiding wars as much as possible is the right call, and as societies living together in the same world, we should aspire to that without a doubt. But too many are not there yet and the rest have to deal with this reality somehow. So don't get me wrong, If you hit me, I'll hit you back so you don't do it again at least. Are we clear?

I think I triggered you somewhere there. I haven't pushed Kurds to anything, I acknowledge what they demand, which is a country on their own and I think it's totally fair to do it democratically, otherwise, they are enforced to live under the law of another majority, which will be always biased against them, or adopt whatever the other majority decides they have to adopt. Enforcing unity is usually what happens under a dictatorship, which may seem cool, unless you are the one fucked up by the dictator and his army, like the Kurds were. Where I say dictatorship, I can also say democracy, because the Turkish government does exactly the same against them.

And I'm 100% against the genocide of the Yazidis, they don't happen because of people like me at all. You know, I could even consider international military interventions to prevent them. Those who do it have to be at least denounced.

https://borgenproject.org/genocide-of-yazidis-by-isil/

[Nahm]

Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today. Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace, you. 

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us and the world will be as one. Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can. No need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man. Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you. 

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us and the world will be as one. 

John Lennon 

Murdered for expression, December 8th 1980. 

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

, I acknowledge what they demand, which is a country on their own and I think it's totally fair to do it democratically,

It's fucking not fair in any way possible. I hope one day you get it. Stop pushing your trash country dogma into people's throat.

 

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

otherwise, they are enforced to live under the law of another majority, which will be always biased against them, or adopt whatever the other majority decides they have to adopt.

Iraq was created by Brits, it is fucking not working, now folks like you are so egotistical, they think they have the solution for this, which is: Let's divide them!!! Then magically, somehow, after we give them each their own state, they are going to live in harmony! I am telling you these people, the best of them are still loyal to tribalism, they are not even yet at (Stage blue), and you egotistical people want to export your shit to them.

 

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

And I'm 100% against the genocide of the Yazidis, they don't happen because of people like me at all.

It did happen because of people like you, I was there (here) when it happened. I watched it day by day as it unfolded. It took me few years to understand. It is your willingness to do some work here and there to make it better, these delusional egotistical views which is not compatible in any way with nations who live in Iraq, it is the first reason for genocides . The west gave us states and countries, and then you want to create more of it! This is utterly stupidity. Stop pushing your dogmas into us. you caused us to be bipolar cuz the tribal norms are sometimes much stronger than the new westernized laws imposed on us. I invite you to come live as an Iraqi and try to start to understand how this polarization between tribalism and modern laws are fucking us in the ass. It is not working. You are trying to maintain a fake Façade of modernism, but this is not for us. you are fucking us hard, and you will always be unsatisfied, unfulfilled and get ready to hear about bad news and genocide.

As for me, I am going to work to deconstruct this illusion called Iraq, I will convince people about this and push back against people like you. I know now how to disable your fake support for minorities, because it is not a support at all, it is not but driven by your ego to impose your own dogma. If  I tell you that individuality  is suppressed and gays are killed, and young people have no right to decide their fate, would you ever care for this? of course no! I've told my story to countless people, and everyone distanted themselves from me. So in reality you don't care a shit about minorities, but you care to impose your own ideas driven by ego, thinking that you are doing good.

I don't hate people like you, but I know now how to disable them and their sneaky work. The yazidi genocide happened when Democrats where in power, when Biden was in power ok? don't ever forget that, cause George Bush is my HERO!! and one day I will miss the days of Trump. I hope he bomb Iran before he leaves power and give them a lesson they never forget. Cuz people like Trump and Bush, they know how to deal with the situation better than those with delusions about how they will do some work here and there to repair the situation.

 

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian Look, man, stop projecting all that garbage into me or what you call people like me, which is false. I'm just stating my opinion on this, you can do the same. If your points are good, you don't need to make personal remarks of any kind about me.

The more democracy and human rights, which should go hand in hand, the more Kurdish people are going to demand their rights. The best way to keep them under the foot was in fact a red dictatorship. Bush is not a hero, he is a genocide for starting a war with lies and thousands of deads in a foreign country. Thank god Trump is out of the picture because he was likely to do the same.

[Mesopotamian]

29 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

The more democracy and human rights, which should go hand in hand, the more Kurdish people are going to demand their rights.

Kurds are primitive tribes, the are wonderful tribes, but they are tribes. Anyone of them would want to punch someone in the nuts if they hear him speak in a dialect that's not his. At best cases they have three languages and tens of dialects. so STOP imagining them as a nation, you are hurting them, you are causing their next genocide. literally you are making the way for the next Kurdish genocide, while still the blood of then called "Yazeedi Kurds" (because they were used as a card), the blood is still wet, the slavery they went through is still going on. Stop projecting the notion of a nation upon these tribes. Just get it, you are so egotistical that you look to me like an adult who thinks he's responsible for a kindergarten. You think you know way better than Kurds, but you are hurting the shit out of them. 

[Nahm]

@Mesopotamian

Is ‘George Bush is my hero’ sarcasm? 

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian  Yeah, sure. Happy holiday, dude!

[Mesopotamian]

48 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Mesopotamian

Is ‘George Bush is my hero’ sarcasm? 

No it is not. I was months away from being loaded into a truck and sent to serve I Saddam's army, when Bush announced operation Iraqi Freedom. 20 days later Saddam is gone! He brought me freedom from a dictator. I wish I can meet him and thank him. These are my true feelings. 

[Nahm]

@Mesopotamian

That is beautiful. Thanks!

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian  Was it to the mandatory military service? That's still not that rare, countries like Russia and Israel have it, it ended in the late 90s in my country as well, we were also put into trucks or faced prison if not. In any case, you were lucky not to be called earlier and be killed by the US army with a bomb for being in a base serving like others were. They would be alive if the US hadn't decided to attack a foreign country and you could have easily been one of them. But you weren't, so who cares, right?

They didn't do it to save you guys, they did it to serve the interests of their military industry, which makes huge profits with wars like this, the oil companies obviously, and many others as well. Your government, whoever wins the elections, is with all certainty lobbied by powerful economical entities now. Is that better than Saddam? I guess so, but the price was too high, and you never know how it would have turned out without attacking them either. Your country seems full of violence yet anyway.

Offtopic note: Israel has mandatory service, but only for first-class jew citizens, the lower Palestinians are not allowed to touch guns, for obvious reasons. Just pointing out the apartheid there. Making friends here, for sure.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Hatfort

[Mesopotamian]

15 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Mesopotamian

@Hatfort    I love what they did anyways. Things became much  better and   life got much more interesting for me personally  than when Saddam was in power. I don't care how many people died. Saddam Hussain unlike say UAE or SAudi rulers have proven he's not reliable and he has to go period.

I never ever regret what has hapenpend, but what I regret is the stupidity of, yet again, guys like you, because you are stil clinging to an idea of "if Bush had not invaded Iraq" You did choose this  point  in  time and you decide it to cast the blame on it ignoring everything else. I am telling you it is so stupid to choose one point in time. Why don't you choose the point in time when Obama did let a genocide happened in Iraq, when in 1 day, 5000 Yazidis were  killed and 3000 women enslaved?  Why Didn' you choose a point when 1/3 of Iraq was occupied by ISIS while obama was watching?

I know your whole identity hinges upon this, an I will not regret pushing you into an early life crisis for this, cuz you are wrong. I love George Bush, and he's a saint in my eyes, and I saw people who are way more evil than he ever was or could ever be. In fact I will order his book of paintings that he did and hopefully I can get it signed while thanking him for saving the young me.

YOu know why? because for me everything has passed. AS I mentioned, Iraq now is not a country anyways, but I am here, and I am developing myself and growing in knowledge and wisdom, and this is all what matters to me. But to you, you are imagining he existance of nations like Iraqis and  Kurds, and all you care  about is for these nations to be well and happy, maybe ust maybe because your ego cannot deal with the fact that you as an American, you are also responsible for demolishing some nations, like the original indians, and you don't want to happen again, especially with nations that you know and love, It is your issue that you are unable to live with the fact, and maybe because you want things to be ideal and you think you can achieve that, and for this I invite you to look at the success story of Japan after WWII , the prosperity of nations like South Korea and other nations supported by western powers. 

It is disgusting that you try to lessen what I could have been through  if I joined the Iraqi army.  Cuz You have no idea  about how bad it is jst to join the army in Saddam's time. It would have been  another shocking experience that I managed  to avoid by the bliss of the Iraqi Freedom Operation. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Mesopotamian

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian Well, I care how many people died, that's a difference between us, no doubt about it.

I think it's very different international interventions in conflicts that are already happening than invading other countries with lies for hidden economical and geopolitical interests. Of course, Hussein's dictatorship was awful, but, as you say, your country continues being violent as hell, democracy didn't take that away. The violence very probably increased in the new scenario for years until it got balanced again. That's on Bush as well, Obama inherited that what his predecessor caused. It's probably very unstable yet.

Man, make your points, I'm interested and some are valid, although others are garbage. But stop talking about me or what you call ones like me. You don't speak for me, I do. My whole identity doesn't hinge upon this, that's a crazy thing to say, as far as you know I'm just a guy commenting about a topic in a forum, the rest is your imagination. I'm not even American, but I have no shame saying that what happened to the natives was awful. The settlers and invaders were undeveloped and red, so it was unavoidable at that time of history, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I think there is a future where all different civilizations will live at relative peace, not that we will see it in our lifetimes, but we are getting there. At least if we don't screw our planet before that, but that's another topic, and can be addressed at another time.

[Mesopotamian]

@Hatfort "think it's very different international interventions in conflicts that are already happening than invading other countries with lies for hidden economical and geopolitical interests"

I think there are many similarieis also. And nobody is truly  an  angel.  It is all deception of the mind. This is how it works, politicians are always humans and willing to lie. If you are not ready t accept this, then leave the society and go live in a cave. One thing I am clear out of Leo's videos  is that we will need like another 300 years o reach better situation. It is utter delusion to expect things to go perfect for everybody not in my life time  and not in yours, so I believe you have to accept that and free yourself of the delusions of he past and the future, because if you are unable to free yourself from the delusions, you won't be able to free others from it, cuz remember it is all delusions that makes the situation worse.  People think that plastic is making things clean thus saving their health, so they use more of it, they are being delusional and unaware of the damage they are causing on the long term form them and the next generations. 

Also people want to see other unified, a massacae happens because of that. The Yazidis towns were under the military and security control of Kurds when the Kurd fighters left them to ISIS and fled the land. They were not ready to fight for them, not prepared for that, because they don't give a shit about them. I am telling youKurds don't give a shit about each other (their sub-groups) When you push for them to unify under a modern invention that's a sate, you're trying to achieve something out of your egotistical mind. 

So here's the message, free yourself from delusions, so that you know how it works and the dynamics of it, and then you can help others free themselves too. This is the only way for truth. 

[Vrubel]

@Mesopotamian Nobody can choose where they are born and you have definitely been dealt a bad hand. As a westerner, I will probably never understand your struggles and I can only give you my sympathies for I can see you are trying to be the best you can be and that is damn admirable. 

While I see how many of your points are very valid and that green and Marxist dogmas sound very cringy trying to "lecture" you. I will ask you to reconsider your position on the Kurds. The Kurds are not a purely tribal people, in their region they have stable government and security. This is the product of a healthy stage blue organization. I have actually known some Kurdish people and as I understand the Kurds see themselves as one nation and are loyal to that nation more so than to their individual tribes or religions. Not to mention they did an outstanding job kicking out ISIS out of their territory.
I sense some antagonism you have towards the Kurds, perhaps due to your upbringing in a tribal society. Please forgive me if I sound ignorant or out of touch but can you choose to live in Kurdish territory? As at least there they enjoy stability. (or is this not possible due to tribal tensions and the autonomy that they have there?)

Edited December 25, 2020 by Vrubel

[Hatfort]

@Mesopotamian Did you just say that I'm not ready to accept that people and politicians lie? lol, accept it is an understatement. Again, instead of making your points, you make up all kinds of false statements about me and you discuss with that depiction instead because it's easier. I'm not going to even go through that garbage you tell about delusion. What you are doing at this point is gaslighting, pure manipulation, but I wasn't born yesterday.

I didn't like what happened in Irak, I've stated many reasons why. You don't agree, fine by me.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Hatfort

[Vrubel]

2 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

 What you are doing at this point is gaslighting, pure manipulation, but I wasn't born yesterday.

He is doing none of those things. He wants to point out the insanity of you pushing your worldview and morals onto him, you fail to respect that he grew up and lives in a completely different world than you.

[Hatfort]

@Vrubel Yes he is, instead of stating his points about the topic, he is constantly making personal remarks and false assumptions about me.

I'm not pushing my worldview, I'm just sharing it the same way he is in a discussion forum, in a topic he started for that purpose, by the way.

[Vrubel]

@Hatfort Sure he uses some offensive language and some discussion etiquette is kinda lacking(; 
But it is not directed at you personally but rather at the arrogance of people that lecture down on him in the exact way you do. You are just taking personal offense. He is actually more aware of the rift between you two than you are. For him the Iraq war was a life-saver, get over it.