I Finally Got It, Iraq Is A Psuedu-Country.

[Mesopotamian]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What you're describing right now is stage Green. 

It's one democracy trying to save other countries. 

Such initiatives are taken at stage Green level of democracy 

You want to attribute it to stage green why? Why you think highly of yourself? a democracy even is a fluid idea, Spiral Dynamics is a new invention and it is flawed. You most certainly want to attribute good stuff not only to this model, but to the stage you like the most?!?!?!?!?!?

George Bush wasn't at stage-green when he was a president, not until his recent years when he becaeme an artist.

[JohnD]

@Mesopotamian 'Country' is a label. If you want to further distinguish it into a lower class, that's fine. I will point out that you're separating 3rd world countries from 1st world countries and claiming they don't deserve to be called countries. Similarly your country has done this to you with your rights, since you don't meet their expectations.

@Preety_India What you're referring to was not a stage-green initiative.

[Preety_India]

@Mesopotamian this is not about George Bush being at stage Green or not 

You're completely missing the point here. 

Can George Bush take such decisions in a stage Red country? 

Absolutely not. 

The American Federal system is very democratic and supportive of stage Green values and hence it was possible for Bush to take the decisions he took. 

And please remove this shadow that stage Green folks are trying to be morally superior. Nobody told you that other than you projecting it. 

It's not about moral superiority or "me better than you" games. It's about progressive values and principles, for example LGBT rights 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

51 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

It is not a country, It is a Kingdom, with peasants and kings. You want to see it as a country because it serves your personal agenda I guess. but do a little research and I can help you see (by answering your questions) how the idea of a country is forced down its throat.

I totally understand what you're saying. I'm not wanting to claim that it is a country, you'd know that better than me. It doesn't serve my survival-agenda to prove that it is a country. My point, though, is that it could help your survival-agenda to assume that it is a country, especially if Iraqi passports exist. I'm going to tell you why.

'Countries' are how human survival works in today's day and age. Most people know 'Iraq' as a 'country'. So, they will see you as a 'citizen of the country Iraq'. Now, if you want to leave Iraq, you want to be able to tell people where you're from, which 'country' you're from. If you're going to tell people that you're from your city that isn't in a real country, they'll look at you like you're from another planet! Technically, at least for the rest of the world, 'Iraq' is a 'country'.

This is not to deny the realities that you've described in your original post. Absolutely, it may not be a democracy and there may not be a legit government, it may just be city-states of sorts.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

It is not a country, It is a Kingdom, with peasants and kings. You want to see it as a country because it serves your personal agenda I guess. but do a little research and I can help you see (by answering your questions) how the idea of a country is forced down its throat.

Yea at some point some kingdoms/places/alliances decided to be countries/nation states and they liked it. Why do they have to decide for others to be countries too? They wanted the whole world to be play along and be countries. Why? Because it only works if others play along with the global economy and so on. Everybody needs a flag and an anthem etc. It's concepts upon concepts. I mean it can be fun and i like my country but i see your perspective. Your country is like an unhappy marriage/relationship with lots of violence and traumatised children.

[Arcangelo]

6 hours ago, Preety_India said:

democracy itself is a stage BLUE concept.

FYP

[Preety_India]

@Arcangelo it might have originated in stage Blue, but it's progression is in stage green. Otherwise it stagnates at blue. 

[Heart of Space]

@Mesopotamian  The Iran-Iraq war was partially a result of American interference in Iran and the following anti-american Iranian revolution previous to that war.  The western world egged Sadam on to fight Iran which devastated both countries.  In the wake of that war Sadam made some choices which made the US view him as unpredictable and dangerous, especially following the gulf War.  

I'm not saying there wasn't some benefit to regime change, but after considering what I reference in history do you not feel there is some level of blundering on the side of the US?  I mean for Christ's sake it's estimated that hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis were slaughtered in the name of regime change and false intelligence about weapons of mass destruction?  

Nothing is ever so simple to blame one side or the other.  But there are definitely many mistakes that can be learned on the side of the US.

[Mesopotamian]

7 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I totally understand what you're saying. I'm not wanting to claim that it is a country, you'd know that better than me. It doesn't serve my survival-agenda to prove that it is a country. My point, though, is that it could help your survival-agenda to assume that it is a country, especially if Iraqi passports exist. I'm going to tell you why.

'Countries' are how human survival works in today's day and age. Most people know 'Iraq' as a 'country'. So, they will see you as a 'citizen of the country Iraq'. Now, if you want to leave Iraq, you want to be able to tell people where you're from, which 'country' you're from. If you're going to tell people that you're from your city that isn't in a real country, they'll look at you like you're from another planet! Technically, at least for the rest of the world, 'Iraq' is a 'country'.

This is not to deny the realities that you've described in your original post. Absolutely, it may not be a democracy and there may not be a legit government, it may just be city-states of sorts.

I will do whatever I can within my moral system in order to obtain a new passport and citizenship without depending on the Iraqi system. If I had to promote gambling and pornography for money, I would do it. This will spare me the fake identity imposed on me right now and help me disassociate further from this great delusion.

I have no hope in receiving a passport unless I get involved in corruption and bribery, and then I would hate myself for it it is extremely against my morality to deny all these principles in order to get the most lousy passport on earth and be a part of that delusion where genocides and wars happen frequently. I have managed so far to disassociate myself by claiming I am a citizen or a slave of the city I live in. It is hard to go back to be a citizen of Iraq again. 

 

 

[Mesopotamian]

6 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea at some point some kingdoms/places/alliances decided to be countries/nation states and they liked it. Why do they have to decide for others to be countries too? They wanted the whole world to be play along and be countries. Why? Because it only works if others play along with the global economy and so on. Everybody needs a flag and an anthem etc. It's concepts upon concepts. I mean it can be fun and i like my country but i see your perspective. Your country is like an unhappy marriage/relationship with lots of violence and traumatised children.

Finally someone gets what I mean. Thank you. I was just talking to the only person I trust my little brother and I told him that practically you can turn a piano into a bus school, and there will be a great delusion about it, but you put wheels to it, a driver seat, and you use it to transfer 50 people each day. If will be as legit as a real bus if everyone talked about it as a bus, but imagine the suffering it will create for everybody. 

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

@Mesopotamian  The Iran-Iraq war was partially a result of American interference in Iran and the following anti-american Iranian revolution previous to that war.  The western world egged Sadam on to fight Iran which devastated both countries.  In the wake of that war Sadam made some choices which made the US view him as unpredictable and dangerous, especially following the gulf War.  

I'm not saying there wasn't some benefit to regime change, but after considering what I reference in history do you not feel there is some level of blundering on the side of the US?  I mean for Christ's sake it's estimated that hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis were slaughtered in the name of regime change and false intelligence about weapons of mass destruction?  

Nothing is ever so simple to blame one side or the other.  But there are definitely many mistakes that can be learned on the side of the US.

What happened is meant to happen don't blame the US for anything. If anything the US has been a great defender for stability in our modern world. 

The insurgents after 2003 have been willing not only to kill American troops but to kill the Iraqis. They wouldn't mind killing a hundred Iraqi if they could kill an American soldier in the process.  There has to be blood in order to bring Iraq to this level of stability we see today, but in the meantime the high coast as I mentioned is because you keep enforcing the idea that Iraq is a country and it should stay a country forever, and it only needs some work here and there to be a functioning  country. It turned out it needs blood d shed of millions to keep it appear as a country. Just let it disintegrate officially and enter an Era of darkness for a while, cuz the iraqi people themselves they need to see that it is costly to try to keep this fake image. 

But now we have Biden in power, biden is going to further spoil the situation by doing everything he can to keep the country glued. Of course there will be new genocides as a result of this. 

[Roy]

Yes it's absolutely not a country. it's just quickly vaguely drawn borders on the map by the British and their hasty retreat from being a global empire after the second world war.

Based on everything you mentioned, and the glaring state of things currently. It's pretty obvious things will never significantly better in the near, or even long term future. Even if all the political, economic, and social issues magically cured themselves, the area is going to get fucking ravaged by climate change. Look at a city right now like Basrah. It's already going through near unlivable temperatures of 50C through almost half the year. This is only going to get worse too, it's unstoppable.

I'd do all you can to move somewhere and find a better life my friend. Be safe.

[Gesundheit]

No country is a real country in the sense that you're talking about. You're imagining that first world countries have like some angel governments that deeply care for their people and that your government is evil and full of dictators and classicism. But that's not the case at all. Even in the most developed countries you'll find people complaining about how their governments are evil with all the taxes and law enforcements and all sorts of shit. You should apply the same image that you have right now of your country to the whole world. Iraq is like you, and first world countries are like these elite rich first class people in Iraq.

[Mesopotamian]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

No country is a real country in the sense that you're talking about. You're imagining that first world countries have like some angel governments that deeply care for their people and that your government is evil and full of dictators and classicism. But that's not the case at all. Even in the most developed countries you'll find people complaining about how their governments are evil with all the taxes and law enforcements and all sorts of shit. You should apply the same image that you have right now of your country to the whole world. Iraq is like you, and first world countries are like these elite rich first class people in Iraq.

Yes in the absolute sense, no country is a real countries, but there are indicators, and meters. If we have to pretend there are countries at all, we should have a look at the meters. Those in first world countries who complain are bitches and morons, have no idea how is it like in other countries. Let's make indicators talk.

just a quick example, On Transparency,org, Iraq scores 20/100, while countries like Germany scores 80

https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/iraq#

 

[Mesopotamian]

@Gesundheit Have a look on Amnesty human rights report , it says 500 people were killed in demonstrations in 2019 alone, along with other sad facts

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/iraq/report-iraq/

Edited December 22, 2020 by Mesopotamian

[Preety_India]

22 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

No country is a real country in the sense that you're talking about. You're imagining that first world countries have like some angel governments that deeply care for their people and that your government is evil and full of dictators and classicism. But that's not the case at all. Even in the most developed countries you'll find people complaining about how their governments are evil with all the taxes and law enforcements and all sorts of shit. You should apply the same image that you have right now of your country to the whole world. Iraq is like you, and first world countries are like these elite rich first class people in Iraq.

This is wrong. First world countries have much better conditions for the people. 

For example, take the coronavirus vaccine. It's the first world countries that will get it first. And then the vaccine will be given to third world countries after the first world demands have been filled. 

There's a terrible level of discrimination in the world when it comes to wealth and resources. 

You're trying to paint a happy image of a sad world. 

The quality of life in the third world is barely liveable in comparison to the first world nations unless you are from a rich family in the world third world where you get to enjoy a lot of things. 

 

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

Yes it's absolutely not a country. it's just quickly vaguely drawn borders on the map by the British and their hasty retreat from being a global empire after the second world war.

Based on everything you mentioned, and the glaring state of things currently. It's pretty obvious things will never significantly better in the near, or even long term future. Even if all the political, economic, and social issues magically cured themselves, the area is going to get fucking ravaged by climate change. Look at a city right now like Basrah. It's already going through near unlivable temperatures of 50C through almost half the year. This is only going to get worse too, it's unstoppable.

I'd do all you can to move somewhere and find a better life my friend. Be safe.

You mentioned details that indicates that you have researched this subject and the conditions of life in Iraq.

Thank you for your wishes. I am doing my best to use the time to elevate myself, and detach from this country. I might need a lift later in one way or another, I need to get my freedom of movement in this planet back.

[Gesundheit]

@Mesopotamian Look buddy, I'm just gonna be blunt with you here. This is all your delusion. You can easily see stage Red & Blue delusions, but you can't see stage Orange & Green delusions. All that material nonsense is just delusional thinking and western brainwashing. You're stuck in the human story and you need to transcend it. That's one way to solve your problems. The other way is to do your best and get outta there. Anything other than that, you're just bullshitting yourself.

P.S. I am not German, nor do I live in a first world country.

@Preety_India Didn't know that, because I live on the utopian planet Mars where all the creatures are pink and fluffy. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Parththakkar12]

4 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

I will do whatever I can within my moral system in order to obtain a new passport and citizenship without depending on the Iraqi system. If I had to promote gambling and pornography for money, I would do it. This will spare me the fake identity imposed on me right now and help me disassociate further from this great delusion.

I have no hope in receiving a passport unless I get involved in corruption and bribery, and then I would hate myself for it it is extremely against my morality to deny all these principles in order to get the most lousy passport on earth and be a part of that delusion where genocides and wars happen frequently. I have managed so far to disassociate myself by claiming I am a citizen or a slave of the city I live in. It is hard to go back to be a citizen of Iraq again.

Are you sure you don't want to do everything in your power to weasel your way out of there? Somehow, through corrupt institutions and stuff?

Ah, I see. You don't want to increase the corruption in a situation where the public institutions are already weak and where if you increase the corruption, that would lead to more wars. Your morality says that you shouldn't do that for the collective best-interests. You don't want to do what terrorists do, which is bribe the institutions. That's how they may be carrying out their genocides and you don't want to contribute to that, you don't want to be a part of that. Am I right?

I have a suggestion for you - integrate Stage Red. Stage Blue is too high for your situation. Respect to you to have your sense of morality in such a dangerous situation. However, having a morality doesn't sound so common there if it's that dangerous and the rules of the battlefield are decided by the one who is willing to stoop the lowest. Or rather, the moralities of the people around you may be very distorted and dangerous, for example the moralities of radical Islamist terrorist organizations.

If Iraq really isn't a country and if it really is that dangerous, you may want to look into fighting your way out of there by hook or by crook. When there are no institutions promoting collective safety, it is every man for himself and you're going to have to fight for your individual safety. What do you think?

Now that I think about it, I have another possible suggestion. Integrate all the various moralities of the people there and create a new, cohesive morality that promotes peace. This is if you want to live there or if it's too difficult for you to get out of there. I would be too scared to do this though, because the people there are armed. I would need to have a lot of personal power, like the ability to stand up to the violent groups there. I may need to have enough firepower for myself to enforce some rules there myself. First integrate the moralities to create a nice, new morality, then train yourself as a fighter and have your own militia or something to defend yourself and others from the oncoming threats. Then, maybe look into rising to power and uniting the groups there? Saddam 2.0, better this time? I don't know man, I'm just spitballing on this one. Another possibility is to integrate the moralities of people who agree with you, form your group and just fight for your morality? I don't know, that sounds too terrorist-like. It is an option though, if you do it consciously.

I wish you the best of luck. You seriously need it. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Mesopotamian]

9 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Are you sure you don't want to do everything in your power to weasel your way out of there? Somehow, through corrupt institutions and stuff?

Ah, I see. You don't want to increase the corruption in a situation where the public institutions are already weak and where if you increase the corruption, that would lead to more wars. Your morality says that you shouldn't do that for the collective best-interests. You don't want to do what terrorists do, which is bribe the institutions. That's how they may be carrying out their genocides and you don't want to contribute to that, you don't want to be a part of that. Am I right?

I have a suggestion for you - integrate Stage Red. Stage Blue is too high for your situation. Respect to you to have your sense of morality in such a dangerous situation. However, having a morality doesn't sound so common there if it's that dangerous and the rules of the battlefield are decided by the one who is willing to stoop the lowest. Or rather, the moralities of the people around you may be very distorted and dangerous, for example the moralities of radical Islamist terrorist organizations.

If Iraq really isn't a country and if it really is that dangerous, you may want to look into fighting your way out of there by hook or by crook. When there are no institutions promoting collective safety, it is every man for himself and you're going to have to fight for your individual safety. What do you think?

Now that I think about it, I have another possible suggestion. Integrate all the various moralities of the people there and create a new, cohesive morality that promotes peace. This is if you want to live there or if it's too difficult for you to get out of there. I would be too scared to do this though, because the people there are armed. I would need to have a lot of personal power, like the ability to stand up to the violent groups there. I may need to have enough firepower for myself to enforce some rules there myself. First integrate the moralities to create a nice, new morality, then train yourself as a fighter and have your own militia or something to defend yourself and others from the oncoming threats. Then, maybe look into rising to power and uniting the groups there? Saddam 2.0, better this time? I don't know man, I'm just spitballing on this one. Another possibility is to integrate the moralities of people who agree with you, form your group and just fight for your morality? I don't know, that sounds too terrorist-like. It is an option though, if you do it consciously.

I wish you the best of luck. You seriously need it. 

I take seriously everything you wrote, the problem though that I cannot see a clear path to "salvation" in many of your suggestions at this moment. But because you've mentioned them, They will always be on my mind, and maybe one day, some of them will make sense. I've never thought I could lead a militia for example.

For now, I am living in a hotel, and there are people who care about my physical survival, and I care about theirs, and it is one of the best places I've lived so far. I have access to cheap goods, and the room is priced fairly. Water and AC, and I have plenty of time to rise to stage-orange and do consciousness work with the available means.

Also I don't think there's luck at all. One hidden message I have got from listening to countless arguments by Leo is that fulfillment and sometimes even survival business is nothing but random.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Mesopotamian