Handling Ego Death?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Baul said:

@Leo Gura You mentioned in your newest video that you recommend a 30mg dose of 5-MeO-DMT for an effective experience, yet I have seen on other info sites (such as erowid and dmtnexus) that the maximum recommended dosage is about 20mg. Is this a discrepancy? 

I don't consider 30mg very high. It feels like a perfect breakthrough dose. I would call it a high dose, but not a very high dose. Over 30mg would start to reach into the Very High territory. But you could be more sensitive than me.

For snorting, 20mg is low. I doubt it will bring you to Absolute Infinity. At least it didn't for me. I tried exactly 20mg my second time. It was a relatively deep experience, but not Infinite.

I've read reports of people taking 75mg or more and living. That's plain stupid, but just goes to show.

I'm pretty confident that anything under 40mg snorted will not physically harm you if you are of normal health.

[ChimpBrain]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't consider 30mg very high. It feels like a perfect breakthrough dose. I would call it a high dose, but not a very high dose. Over 30mg would start to reach into the Very High territory. But you could be more sensitive than me.

For snorting, 20mg is low. I doubt it will bring you to Absolute Infinity. At least it didn't for me. I tried exactly 20mg my second time. It was a relatively deep experience, but not Infinite.

I've read reports of people taking 75mg or more and living. That's plain stupid, but just goes to show.

I'm pretty confident that anything under 40mg snorted will not physically harm you if you are of normal health.

I've been reading trip reports all evening and there doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to the dose used vs the experience had by the user. It's all over the place . I'm guessing this might be due to variances in quality and purity but that's just speculation on my part . Part of me wants to start low because of the reports about ceasing respiration and heart palpitations but on the other hand too seems to cause all the anguish and none of the benefit . I'm gonna keep reading . 

[Friend]

@electroBeam What was your weighted dose and method of ingestion? Free basing with a rig will throw you right up there but it requires someone else to administer it to you. 7.5 grams is not accurate. Please be careful and tread the waters with respect. 

[electroBeam]

@Friend sorry meant 7.5 mg +- 0.2 mg, I used a digital precision scale, and my method of ingestion wasn't snorting, because I'm not sure how to do that. I vaporized the material at the same temperature you vaporize normal DMT. 

[Naviy]

@electroBeam

 

Reminded me of the first half of that one trip report I've read (and video):

Quote

Am I as scared to write this as I think I am? When I first wrote about DMT a few years ago, it took months for me to come to terms with the awe and find the words. I am only four days out from the most powerful event of my life; I am still scratching the bug bites from my days spent laying in the sand of Punta Chueca. Yes, I am afraid.

We had done an ayahuasca ceremony the night before and were going on little sleep when we pulled into the secluded cove the day after the full moon. The doctor and shaman were both there whom I had met the night before, and they held rattles and a feather stick. My biggest concern was the scorching heat with only one application of sunscreen. A fellow psychonaut tried to divert my attention from the ayahuasquero who had just smoked the 5-MeO and whose eyes were rolled back into his head with bubbles coming out of his mouth. She held me close to her and asked me to look only into her eyes. She said, “You go in there and be all that you ARE. You are magnificent. You are beautiful.”

They held towels up around me to protect the flame from the wind. The doctor had me take several deep breaths, and he held the glass bulb pipe to my lips. “Slowly…” he cautioned. I sucked in the smoke and finished it only with his persistence. I told myself to hold it in as instructed, but I wanted to exhale.

I stood in the beautiful sun and my body almost immediately dissolved into white light. Like confetti, I fell apart. I lost myself completely and ceased to exist. I do not remember anything here, though on the video I am moving my arms quite a bit. I wonder if this is what they refer to as the “white out.”

The next thing I remember is not being human. I do not remember what was happening, but I know I was increasingly losing control. In the video, I am beginning to kick my legs and run in place, though I have collapsed on the ground. My throat sounds start low and gradually become higher-pitched and more afraid. Things begin to turn inside-out in ways that don’t make sense at all. Every atom in my body is attacking me, and every dimension that ever made sense is imploding and taking me with it. I have no thought of Self or my name or my body or 5-MeO-DMT. I am gone completely. Completely. Lost in ever-evolving agony. And I'm more and more out of control. I don’t even have these thoughts. My essence is twisted into all that is Hell--and it’s only coming on faster and more intensely. If I even attempt to find myself, I am punished with more horror and pain. I do not even know the word “release” or the term “let go.” I am in the grip of Hell itself. Pain and horror that cannot be described here.

It is at this point in the video that the doctor turns me over on my back, and my human body has stopped breathing. My friend tells me my face had gone purple, and that he saw the doctor become concerned. They pour water into my throat to get me to breathe for survival.

In my Hell, the water they pour becomes another part of the madness and propels me into farther, more isolated levels of Hell. I am drowning, I am dying, I am dying everyone’s death, I am all the pain that ever has existed, and that’s a silly understatement. I know I am in very serious trouble. I begin to truly panic.

I see myself clearly suddenly. I have finally done 5-MeO, the ultimate thing I’ve been so foolishly chasing. And I’m trapped. I am worse than insane. I am trapped in a Hell that is compounding upon itself infinitely with each unfolding moment. It cannot get worse…and then it does. Again and again. Shockingly. Disturbingly. Infinitely. Over and over and over until my sheer terror makes me crack wide open and accept it.

This is my new reality. The certainty is terrifying. I am the Poster Child for The One Who Got Lost Forever. The One Who Never Came Back. The Cautionary Tale for all psychedelic users for the rest of time. They bring in Buddhist monks, healers, priests, and exorcists. No one can get me out. I assume peripherally that from the outside, my head is shaking back and forth, I’m clawing my face, and screaming with all I am. This is how I will look for the rest of time to the outside world. But inside my soul, it will always only be this compounding, infinite horror. I’m left Alone to act as the Example. It’s what my whole life has been leading to. I, ME, Jennifer…this has been my destiny all along. This is my purpose. I am the Chosen One to embody Hell for others to learn from. To the spiritual people of the world, the Burners and psychonauts, monks and yogis, I am a Legend, and they pay solemn homage. They speak about me at gatherings and try to make sense of me. They come see me, locked up in a museum with glass walls, living out my private Hell for them to observe. They cry and shake their heads. I make them shudder and have disturbing nightmares. Most are too afraid to come see me at all. I become a tragic relic.

As I fully accept this, my panic becomes so immense that I lose my mind. Complete psychosis. Absolute and desolate Madness. I implode into the Hell that has become my only companion. If there were a boulder, and I was able to use my body, I would have smashed my head on it until death released me. With horror, I remind myself that this reality will not end with my death. I am trapped. Forever. The only True Lost Soul in the Universe. I am what everyone fears. Does that make me Satan? No. It makes me the opposite of Light. I am Darkness. The Yin. I am Suffering itself. The Chosen One trapped here to allow the other side to exist. It was ME all along. How’s that for destiny?

A single loud clap cuts through the compounding malevolence, and instantly, everything goes white. Silent. Still. Am I dead? I am nowhere. It is so white.

The doctor begins singing one of his ancient songs. To be honest, I am not sure what finally transitioned me to the Light, but I know his song is now the Arcana imprinted on my soul forever. I find myself humming it every moment my mind is quiet. I felt it through every minute of sleep last night. It guided me out of the darkness. At first I thought the doctor saved me, but now I am starting to believe I saved myself. I had to conquer Hell to reach Nirvana. The price was high. But you get what you pay for.

Surrender...?

Nirvana blooms into all existence. It is a soft, pastel, fractal of Being. Of oneness. Of Light. More than Love. It is free of suffering and beyond the cycle of death and rebirth. I reach true Nirvana. True Enlightenment. The beauty and reality and pureness of it is compounding equally as infinitely as Hell had before. It is equally intense. Building, yes. But also becoming more and more Real. More true. I slowly realize that this Nirvana is not just within ME or something I’ve reached…all of existence now finds itself here for all eternity. The thought of wars crosses my mind, and I realize they are no more. All suffering has ceased. We are allowed to simply exist here now. Forever.

And in the greatest moment I have ever known, it dawns on me that it has all come from Me. There has been a tiny hidden atom(?) located behind my ribcage that has held the power all along. THIS is my destiny! I am the Chosen One to release all beings back into Nirvana. We have found our way home! And the same spiritual community of Burners and seekers now pay homage to the humble one who somehow held the key to unlock all of True Being. And they shake their heads in delight and amazement because no one could have guessed it would come from such a small person. We had all done our parts by awakening others or feeling gratitude or doing yoga or fasting or praying or loving one another or being patient with ourselves.

What we have all been seeking, I fully now realize I have found for us all. There are no “thank you's"--just infinite joy that it has come back around at last. Our hard work is over!! We all did it together! We did it! (you can hear me say, “We did it!” in the video here.) I am God in the existence of Nirvana. As are we all. And this knowledge validates all I have ever been and ever will be.

I have been dealing with some intense flashbacks of the difficult part, and I have been afraid to be alone. I'm having trouble relating to people and teachings that used to comfort me. The Arcana really has seemed to be my crutch, but I intend to release it soon. I can feel myself getting stronger. I believe now that I experienced a literal rebirth. My wonderful friend said to me, "Hell is no longer just a word to you. But then again, neither is Nirvana."

After writing all of this and reflecting in the past few days, I believe my takeaway is this: I am not lost. I am not trapped or doomed. I do not have to be afraid. I am not alone. I am All that Exists. I am responsible for Nirvana, and I will always find my way back to the Light.

**If anyone has had a similar experience, I would love to hear from you.

 

[I Am That]

I think you just need to chip away at it. Don't rush it. Working with an appropriate dosage is important! I know that exact feeling of suffering due to a psilohuasca trip earlier in the year and an Acacia bark trip about a month ago. The pain was immeasurable. The only relief comes from knowing you can kill yourself or pop a benzodiazepine, if you have prepared well. Diazepam rescued me from my psychotic psilohuasca trip. It's all well and good for folk to say, just let go man. You can't. That's the issue, you're not ready to let go. 

I am in the same boat here. So what I'm doing is working towards disassociating from the illusion. Cut out all the unnecessary shit in your life and address your psychology. IMO Jumping to higher doses to "skip" straight to ego death is very risky and I would not suggest it. PTSD is not worth it.

[Azrael]

13 hours ago, mikeyy said:

Where the fuck do u get 5meo dmt?

.Onions are your friends. Look this method up. It's the safest if you want lab-tested stuff.

[electroBeam]

@Naviy wow! My experience wasn't as bad as that! Now I'm really scared!

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, ChimpBrain said:

I've been reading trip reports all evening and there doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to the dose used vs the experience had by the user. It's all over the place . I'm guessing this might be due to variances in quality and purity but that's just speculation on my part . Part of me wants to start low because of the reports about ceasing respiration and heart palpitations but on the other hand too seems to cause all the anguish and none of the benefit . I'm gonna keep reading . 

Variance is huge between dosages because it's very easy to fail to absorb the full dose properly. Someone can snort or smoke 60mg, but it drips down their throat or isn't fully inhaled when smoked, and so effectively they only get 10-20mg out of that 60mg. Or maybe they get the full 60mg!

5-meo takes some trial and error to do correctly. Smoking it isn't easy. That takes skill. Snorting is easier, but still easy to screw it up if you don't tilt your head upside down for 10 minutes like I discovered.

I recommend starting low and learning the proper technique. Then going higher. Proper technique is especially important if smoking.

[Leo Gura]

Just as a tip guys: Don't read too many negative trip reports. Don't fill your mind too much with horror stories. Stupid people do stupid things and then post them as trip reports. Many negative trip reports are written by neurotic teens being teens, doing stupid things, mixing substances together with alcohol and weed, in the wrong settings, without a scale or drug test kits, using unknown substances & sources, etc.

If you are mature and follow all the proper guidelines, hold yourself to a higher standard, and have faith in yourself and your ability to surrender when the moment comes.

All psychedelics do is reflect your own mind back at you. They are a mirror. So polish your mirror and have faith in Truth (what you should be doing already anyways).

[Richard Alpert]

On 25.9.2016 at 6:47 PM, Prabhaker said:

It depends on the person’s mind – psychedelic only magnifies, multiplies. If you are a miserable person, psychedelic will make you a million times more miserable. If you are a man of joy, psychedelic will magnify your joy a thousand times.

This is not true.

Psychedelics would not be used for therapeutical treatment if this is the case. But bad trips etc. are way more highly likely for people who dont have their shit together.

 

[Esoteric]

On 9/25/2016 at 5:47 PM, Prabhaker said:

It depends on the person’s mind – psychedelic only magnifies, multiplies. If you are a miserable person, psychedelic will make you a million times more miserable. If you are a man of joy, psychedelic will magnify your joy a thousand times.

Have you done psychedelics?

[Prabhaker]

5 hours ago, Esoteric said:

Have you done psychedelics?

No, but it is Aldous Huxley's finding. That’s why Aldous Huxley wrote a book and named it 'Heaven and Hell'. 

[Tron]

Part of me feels as if I could handle the surrendering part of the process due to progress I have made through mindfulness and awareness. But part of me doubts myself right now because I still have trouble surrendering to things in this existence, so how could I be so sure about ego death?

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Meta-Man said:

stick to your own experience on this topic

Experience of one person can't be more relevant than years of research done previously. The mind can project anything it likes to project - even an unconscious desire of Samadhi! So whatsoever you have known about Samadhi and have read about it, will be projected through the chemical help, but it is not a spiritual revelation.

[Esoteric]

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

No, but it is Aldous Huxley's finding. That’s why Aldous Huxley wrote a book and named it 'Heaven and Hell'. 

Well I haven't read that book, but I can make an empirical claim that you are wrong in this case. I have done psychedelics in times of despair with positive results, also there have been so many others that have. Look at ayahuasca for example, how many people do you think are drawn to go to the jungle because they are in a state of crisis? Sure, some people are there for the "fun" of it, but that is not a significant number. Visionary artist Alex Grey is another example, he was on the edge of suicide, having prayed to a god he didn't believe in the day before spontaneously trying LSD for the first time which radically changed his life.

I am not saying one should take these substances when in crisis, because it can easily go bad. I am saying that what you are claiming is false, and frankly if you haven't done any psychedelics you shouldn't be making any sort of claims about them.

[kurt]

@John Flores

I'll give you my ideas on another post so I don't clog this one up.  But for now we are both the illusion and the reality: the objects are me, but I am not the objects.  We will always have an ego, we are awareness plus 3 bodies.  No enlightened person ever got rid of their ego. Enlightenment is for the mind, its not for you, you are already enlightened, it's all about "what's my ego doing?" .  I have no idea what these guys are doing with this frog powder, nor do I have any interest but it is interesting to follow, it's upto them if they want to mess around killing their ego for a half hour interview with themselves.  But that doesn't mean I disagree with it, each to their own. That's a healthy ego!

Try becoming enlightened without a healthy ego, your mind all over the place, agitated, deluded, projecting painful thoughts, unable to sit still or think about things for long periods of time.  Its difficult for a mind like that to understand that it is awareness. There is always exceptions to the rule, the only extreme case of an unhealthy person who suddenly became aware of who they are is Eckhart Tolle, but that is a rare case and I don't hedge my bets on being able to duplicate that experience.  Most of the knowledge on enlightenment states certain qualities of mind that need to be cultivated first, one of them is dispassion and an ability to discriminate whats real from whats not real, dispassionate people take life as it comes, know that

"life is a fantasy, a tragicomedy to be acted to the hilt, no doubt, but of no lasting importance.  A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing"

Healthy ego for enlightenment purposes is not about making the world work for the ego, it's about neutralizing the ego's suffering by giving it non dual vision.  There is the difference.

Edited September 27, 2016 by kurt

[Prabhaker]

12 hours ago, Esoteric said:

Well I haven't read that book, but I can make an empirical claim that you are wrong in this case. I have done psychedelics in times of despair with positive results, also there have been so many others that have. Look at ayahuasca for example, how many people do you think are drawn to go to the jungle because they are in a state of crisis? Sure, some people are there for the "fun" of it, but that is not a significant number. Visionary artist Alex Grey is another example, he was on the edge of suicide, having prayed to a god he didn't believe in the day before spontaneously trying LSD for the first time which radically changed his life.

I am not saying one should take these substances when in crisis, because it can easily go bad. I am saying that what you are claiming is false, and frankly if you haven't done any psychedelics you shouldn't be making any sort of claims about them.

Momentary despair doesn't mean that overall you are miserable person, I will like to quote from Leo Gura's post "All psychedelics do is reflect your own mind back at you. They are a mirror. " 

If you don't escape, if you allow the suffering to be there, if you are ready to face it, if you are not trying somehow to forget it, then you are different.I don't mean become a masochist; I don't mean create suffering for yourself and enjoy it. I don't mean: go on, fall down from a cliff, have fractures and then enjoy it- no. Suffering is already there; life by its very nature creates suffering.  When you watch suffering suddenly you are not the sufferer.  Through suffering you become aware of the opposite pole, the blissful inner being. You return to the source, get centered. By escaping from suffering using psychedelics or drug or by any other means may give you a temporary relief, but you will miss an opportunity for spiritual growth. When you start growing, when you decide to grow, you have to face all the pains that you have repressed. You cannot just bypass them.

 

[kurt]

@John Flores

John, life is not pointless , it's meaningless . There is a big difference !

Delusion and ignorance is part of the beauty. Ask yourself why you are depressed, it's because you want to be here! You love life, it's a beautiful place and you know you're lucky. I think the only problem is you're expecting too much from it. 

Enjoyment is the essence of enlightenment, liberation from the mind making meaning for you and a leap to making your own meaning. 

I love life, you have to love life, yourself and people to become enlightened. Otherwise life IS pointless.

Life is sacred to me. Notice the difference in our views at this point. Your view next to my view. Can you see that your view is not the truth? Neither is mine mind you lol. But I created my view, so did you. Which one do you want? Liberation to create and act upon, or be created and acted upon by others suffering? You have a choice in the matter, but that's the only choice you have 

Edited September 28, 2016 by kurt

[Esoteric]

9 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

Momentary despair doesn't mean that overall you are miserable person, I will like to quote from Leo Gura's post "All psychedelics do is reflect your own mind back at you. They are a mirror. " 

If you don't escape, if you allow the suffering to be there, if you are ready to face it, if you are not trying somehow to forget it, then you are different.I don't mean become a masochist; I don't mean create suffering for yourself and enjoy it. I don't mean: go on, fall down from a cliff, have fractures and then enjoy it- no. Suffering is already there; life by its very nature creates suffering.  When you watch suffering suddenly you are not the sufferer.  Through suffering you become aware of the opposite pole, the blissful inner being. You return to the source, get centered. By escaping from suffering using psychedelics or drug or by any other means may give you a temporary relief, but you will miss an opportunity for spiritual growth. When you start growing, when you decide to grow, you have to face all the pains that you have repressed. You cannot just bypass them.

 

Again, you quote others without any chance of knowing yourself. You are going on total belief.

Also, it's like you lump in drugs under one big umbrella. If you had done a big dose of a potent psychedelic you would know for yourself that escaping from suffering is not at all what you are doing, in fact escape is not an option when you stand naked in front of your own psyche. I personally don't think psychedelics will do the work for you, but they can certainly be an aid for spiritual growth and has been for me. They have given me pointers, they have given me wake up calls to what is important to work on. So thank you for the recital and lecture, but I am well on my path in this.