Meditation is not the answer?

[ConsciousOwl10]

Hey guys. I wanted to make this post to try to understand why after years of meditation a lot of people are still very much extremely secular and very touchy about the metaphysical aspect of spiritual practices. For instance, now meditation has gone mainstream, but it has very much become stripped of all its potentially non scientific elements, so they call it mindfulness and try it recontextualize it in terms of being something to calm stress and help with anxiety and things rather than anything profound or woo woo. There are a lot of meditation apps and things in the west now, but I have met a lot of people who despite doing it are still pretty much full of their base desires and impulses and very much anti spirituality and mysticism. Like Sam Harris and atheist meditation practitioners for instance will say that enlightenment experiences are possible, but that this doesn't change the truth of science or any of its foundations, or the current debates on consciousness.  It seems pretty shocking that this is the case, but what is the reason for this? It seems like the ego mind is so powerful that it can literally turn neutralise anything that threatens its being. Maybe Leo or someone else said this, but I heard a story where it says that if Jesus really did come back again, people would literally treat him like a lunatic and lock him in an asylum or something, even if they knew deep down for a fact it was him. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by ConsciousOwl10
correction

[Gesundheit]

4 hours ago, ConsciousOwl10 said:

Like Sam Harris and atheist meditation practitioners for instance will say that enlightenment experiences are possible, but that this doesn't change the truth of science or any of its foundations, or the current debates on consciousness.  It seems pretty shocking that this is the case, but what is the reason for this?

Because they're right from a materialistic pov and wrong from an idealistic pov.

[electroBeam]

4 hours ago, ConsciousOwl10 said:

Hey guys. I wanted to make this post to try to understand why after years of meditation a lot of people are still very much extremely secular and very touchy about the metaphysical aspect of spiritual practices. For instance, now meditation has gone mainstream, but it has very much become stripped of all its potentially non scientific elements, so they call it mindfulness and try it recontextualize it in terms of being something to calm stress and help with anxiety and things rather than anything profound or woo woo. There are a lot of meditation apps and things in the west now, but I have met a lot of people who despite doing it are still pretty much full of their base desires and impulses and very much anti spirituality and mysticism. Like Sam Harris and atheist meditation practitioners for instance will say that enlightenment experiences are possible, but that this doesn't change the truth of science or any of its foundations, or the current debates on consciousness.  It seems pretty shocking that this is the case, but what is the reason for this? It seems like the ego mind is so powerful that it can literally turn neutralise anything that threatens its being. Maybe Leo or someone else said this, but I heard a story where it says that if Jesus really did come back again, people would literally treat him like a lunatic and lock him in an asylum or something, even if they knew deep down for a fact it was him. 

infinity means free will. Free will means freedom to be wrong/deny the truth.

[Gesundheit]

20 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

infinity means free will. Free will means freedom to be wrong/deny the truth.

Ironically, you're misusing this free will by being a little bit too liberal with the word "truth".

[allislove]

@ConsciousOwl10 

You have to have a strong desire to know yourself. A lot of people simply don't have it yet.

Personally, daily meditation practice combined with 5-MeO sessions occasionally is the answer for what Meditation really is. 

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Ironically, you're misusing this free will by being a little bit too liberal with the word "truth".

right, which proves my point

 

[Shanmugam]

6 hours ago, ConsciousOwl10 said:

Hey guys. I wanted to make this post to try to understand why after years of meditation a lot of people are still very much extremely secular and very touchy about the metaphysical aspect of spiritual practices. For instance, now meditation has gone mainstream, but it has very much become stripped of all its potentially non scientific elements, so they call it mindfulness and try it recontextualize it in terms of being something to calm stress and help with anxiety and things rather than anything profound or woo woo. There are a lot of meditation apps and things in the west now, but I have met a lot of people who despite doing it are still pretty much full of their base desires and impulses and very much anti spirituality and mysticism. Like Sam Harris and atheist meditation practitioners for instance will say that enlightenment experiences are possible, but that this doesn't change the truth of science or any of its foundations, or the current debates on consciousness.  It seems pretty shocking that this is the case, but what is the reason for this? It seems like the ego mind is so powerful that it can literally turn neutralise anything that threatens its being. Maybe Leo or someone else said this, but I heard a story where it says that if Jesus really did come back again, people would literally treat him like a lunatic and lock him in an asylum or something, even if they knew deep down for a fact it was him. 

Not everyone is ready to realize the full potential of meditation. 99% population would only need meditation for relaxation. Thy are too occupied with their goals, relationships etc to seek anything that is beyond that. Looks like that is how it is supposed to be.  

Anyway, Transpersonal psychology is a valid field of science which studies spiritual experiences and recognizes the importance of meditation. So, everything that is discussed here indeed have a place in science already. I made a video about it:

 

[Nahm]

If only people would meditate such that the thought of other people meditating is recognized as the thought of other people meditating. What a wonderful world it is. 

[Gesundheit]

If only @Nahm

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

would meditate such that the thought of other people meditating is recognized as the thought of other people meditating.

What a loopy world it is.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

If only people would meditate such that the thought of other people meditating is recognized as the thought of other people meditating. What a wonderful world it is. 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

it completely depends on your reasons for meditating. Most people do it to improve their mental state, be happier, have more control over their emotions, etc. It is completely legitimate and also successful, it works. Another different thing is that you look for the real transcendence, the total deconstruction of your ego, the realization of infinity, etc. I know people who have done two vipasana meditation retreats and you talk to them about transcendence and they think: yes yes, all that is very good, very ideal, but talk to me about real things, about performing at work and being more positive for example. It is normal, letting go of ballast and being naked before infinity only happens when it has to happen

[snowyowl]

I don't think this is only a feature of 'western' society. In the 'east' too, from what I've heard, serious spiritual practice is done by a minority, there's plenty of Buddhist monks even who don't meditate much. But it's okay, if stage orange is where most folks are at, meditation is a good tool to help with progress until we're ready to move on. In fact, meditation can be a constant in an uncertain world, staying with us whatever stages we're going through. 

[ConsciousOwl10]

Yes, it's just interesting how in star wars, the dark side and the Jedi both seem to be very keen on meditation but there also different kinds of meditation I suppose.

[Carl-Richard]

The world doesn't change overnight. Mindfulness meditation becoming mainstream is one baby step in the right direction. For the world to switch from the materialistic paradigm to nonduality requires much more than just a couple of apps becoming available on your phone. It requires immense development on multiple fronts: collective spiritual development, scientific paradigm shifts, social, political, cultural etc..

Edited December 21, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Consilience]

Another point is most people in the mainstream don’t meditate at the level where meditation starts to be truly profound. Meditation has to be done quite rigorously to produce mystical experiences. 

Most people have 0 clue about epistemology though and don’t understand the extent to which their minds manipulate their experience of reality. 

[SamueLSD]

4 hours ago, ConsciousOwl10 said:

Yes, it's just interesting how in star wars, the dark side and the Jedi both seem to be very keen on meditation but there also different kinds of meditation I suppose.

Letting go vs egoic motivation 

[Inliytened1]

On 12/19/2020 at 10:48 PM, ConsciousOwl10 said:

 Like Sam Harris and atheist meditation practitioners for instance will say that enlightenment experiences are possible, but that this doesn't change the truth of science or any of its foundations, or the current debates on consciousness.  It seems pretty shocking that this is the case, but what is the reason for this? 

They are not awake.

[Byun Sean]

you have to keep in mind most scientifically minded and aethiestically minded people have a axe to grind against anything
 

that looks like religion and non-rational thinking because they just evolved from pre-rational thinking to rational. 

At this stage you genuinely believe that rationality is the best way to determine truth.

 

Thus the post-rational is "over their head" and looks like airy fairy beliefs and so they put it in the same box as religion and all

the pre-rational stuff.

Pre-Trans fallacy. A classic.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Byun Sean

[Megan Alecia]

@ConsciousOwl10

Self deception is the way of the world. Hegel said that we never really learn from history. Yes, because self deception shows how deep down we're really wired to seek pleasure. Forget ideology, forget corruption... human addiction to pleasure is the reason of all delusion /evil.

 

[Inliytened1]

@Megan Alecia The self is a deception.  So wouldn't it be fitting that it would pursue more of it.   if it were found out, the game would be up.